Go Back   Wolfdog.org forum > English > Clubs & law

Clubs & law Information about CzW clubs in other countries, law concerning CzW and Kennel CLub regulations...

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-08-2009, 21:46   #1
Tuky
Moderator
 
Tuky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cadiz
Posts: 294
Send a message via MSN to Tuky Send a message via Skype™ to Tuky
Default Artificial insemination only solution for the breed in spain?

Hello

Seeing a little the evolution of the race in Spain I have seen a high increase in the number of copies (from my slightly worrying point of view), right now all young people and of similar age … and especially much brothers … without genetic changeability … I do not comment on the genetics in if of the Spanish CWs, but there is not greatly where to choose since brothers are the majority.

With this thought some Spanish breeders strain (now and in a future) in bringing new blood by means of litters, to leave genetic changeability in Spain. On having been so isolated from the center of Europe, our best option is the Artificial Insemination (AI) … used enough in other races and countries, but being a problem in this breed.

Why is the acceptance of the AI so difficult in this breed? Being this a method that can help to the increase of the genetic changeability and to the evolution of the breed

regards
__________________
solo con los lobos se aprende a aullar
Tuky jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 01:23   #2
carlos2207
Junior Member
 
carlos2207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 48
Default

I am agree, the situation in Spain is very dangerous for the breed. Because is Spain not have many wolfdogs, the breders repeat the same litter many time. And some breders that want to do litters with new blood, quality blood, have the problems of higt cost of fly and many club forbide the artificial insemination. Is this, the artificial insemination the only way for the countries that is to long of the center of Europe
carlos2207 jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 06:53   #3
Hanka
Senior Member
 
Hanka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Kadaň
Posts: 1,622
Send a message via ICQ to Hanka Send a message via Skype™ to Hanka
Default

I don´t know how much females is in Spain. But: is it possible to make a list of females? And somebody can look what blood are the females and you and all breeders can lend some ideal male for all spain females. Maybe every year one male for all females? (If you want save money?) shipping of one male is not so expensive, if all breeders which will want use him can pay it together.......
Bad idea?
Hanka jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 00:38   #4
jmvdwiel
Senior Member
 
jmvdwiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,061
Default

Maybe some male dogs wil be in spain for a holiday , or you can come to the male with the female and have a good holiday also

You can also use fresh sperm that is sent by a courier, althought you cannot keep the sperm in a good condition for a long period

In this case I would say.. go for it and use AI , better than inbreeding to much
jmvdwiel jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 14:19   #5
solowolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuky View Post
Hello

Seeing a little the evolution of the race in Spain I have seen a high increase in the number of copies (from my slightly worrying point of view), right now all young people and of similar age … and especially much brothers … without genetic changeability … I do not comment on the genetics in if of the Spanish CWs, but there is not greatly where to choose since brothers are the majority.

With this thought some Spanish breeders strain (now and in a future) in bringing new blood by means of litters, to leave genetic changeability in Spain. On having been so isolated from the center of Europe, our best option is the Artificial Insemination (AI) … used enough in other races and countries, but being a problem in this breed.

Why is the acceptance of the AI so difficult in this breed? Being this a method that can help to the increase of the genetic changeability and to the evolution of the breed

regards
hi, you live in Spain so what is the problem? you can travel to any European country without any bother? I live in uk and travel to Europe to get bitchs mated, and from where you are based you dont require lots of crap we have to do just to leave and re-enter the uk, Breeders that i use can let me stay till my bitch is mated, even if i had to sleep in the car so what, there are good people all over Europe who will go out of there way to help you, but you must make some effort yourself, Spain is a long way from places in Europe, i lived in Spain for two years and i drove to uk to pick up one of my wolfdogs from La Hoya to Calais takes 22 hrs with 2 drivers, mant European breeders travel many hours to get there dogs mated,I dont see the problem being you can not get suitable dogs or bitchs, or that you can not get breeders from Europe to help, sounds like you dont want to travel///////////, Pacino
solowolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 14:40   #6
Tuky
Moderator
 
Tuky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cadiz
Posts: 294
Send a message via MSN to Tuky Send a message via Skype™ to Tuky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmvdwiel View Post
Maybe some male dogs wil be in spain for a holiday , or you can come to the male with the female and have a good holiday also

You can also use fresh sperm that is sent by a courier, althought you cannot keep the sperm in a good condition for a long period

In this case I would say.. go for it and use AI , better than inbreeding to much
I talked about to that, IA with cooled semen… not congealed, diminishes a little the espermatica quality but even so she is very productive sallying of good I number. (here in Spain did one in that puppies left 6 being female beginner), if the veterinarians are communicated and the owners of the reproducers… at the moment that the female is in its point, would be to call to the owner of the male so that they did the extraction to him and on the following day already would be the inseminada female
__________________
solo con los lobos se aprende a aullar
Tuky jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 14:57   #7
Tuky
Moderator
 
Tuky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cadiz
Posts: 294
Send a message via MSN to Tuky Send a message via Skype™ to Tuky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by solowolf View Post
hi, you live in Spain so what is the problem? you can travel to any European country without any bother? I live in uk and travel to Europe to get bitchs mated, and from where you are based you dont require lots of crap we have to do just to leave and re-enter the uk, Breeders that i use can let me stay till my bitch is mated, even if i had to sleep in the car so what, there are good people all over Europe who will go out of there way to help you, but you must make some effort yourself, Spain is a long way from places in Europe, i lived in Spain for two years and i drove to uk to pick up one of my wolfdogs from La Hoya to Calais takes 22 hrs with 2 drivers, mant European breeders travel many hours to get there dogs mated,I dont see the problem being you can not get suitable dogs or bitchs, or that you can not get breeders from Europe to help, sounds like you dont want to travel///////////, Pacino
The problem that espongo is not mine only, is what I see in Spain, right now I do not have intention nearby to which my bitch has a litter, since for me it is technically impossible both for time (more or less it coincides his ideal moment with my examinations of the university) and for money (it is not cheap to go out of Spain to do an amount ... in car you lose time and plane there are many problems (the majority of the air companies so big dogs do not accept animals and any either).

I speak on behalf of some that want to breed with head and not to cross with any CWs or always to repeat the same litter (being this the easiest thing since they already have a male) ... I do not know the bitches of the rest of europa ... but those who I know have varied jealousy ... they can be with a hormonal concentration one week and overnight to be prepared for the insemination ... also it is necessary to excuse the Spanish veterinarians since in this race they use dogs' parameters of similar weight not being in the end his day of insminacion the one that was predicted in a beginning (having to change tickets of plane or days of permission in the work)

I do not question the amiability of the persons I am even very grateful since someone of them have helped me very much, when I was for my bitch and the friendliness that I saw am grateful for it very much.

For trips I want to return there and to visit persons (that will be easier since I will not have to look when my bitch will be pointed)
__________________
solo con los lobos se aprende a aullar
Tuky jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 15:21   #8
carlos2207
Junior Member
 
carlos2207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 48
Default

Sorry Solowolf, I went to Lituania for Ituborys Girios Dvasia, and to Germany for Emba von der wolfranch and the past month I went to Czech Republic for to do one mate. Do you think that you can say me that the problem is that we don´t want to travel?

I see that you went to Holland and France for mate with your dogs. Next to UK.

I think that the problem is that the breeders should be serious and responsible. The breders should use the very good hd lines and, to use the most wolfish wolfdogs and with good character. This is my idea for breeding.

How many wolfdogs are with this characteristics? very very few. And too long from Spain. The fly to travel is necessary. This is very expensive because you need to buy the fly the last minute and this is very expensive. The AI is the unique option for the serious and responsible Bredeers of Spain.

If you want to breeding only for breeding, without the best wolfdogs, is very easy and not expensive. If you want that improve the breed the AI is necesary.

Last edited by carlos2207; 05-08-2009 at 17:27.
carlos2207 jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 18:40   #9
GalomyOak
Howling Member
 
GalomyOak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 436
Send a message via Skype™ to GalomyOak
Default

Really interesting topic...

In the US, I have wondered the same thing...it's not a problem here yet, since (at least to my knowledge) the first litter has never been bred (although, I have seen some ads online recently trying to pass off mixes as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog mixes - different topic...).

Most people that import to the US choose to import females - either because they want to breed their own litter, or want a dog that they believe will have an easier temperament. So, the pool of males becomes small - dogs that would be good for breeding much smaller. And good breeding males from genetically diverse backgrounds...very, very low.

Obviously, driving to Europe is out of the question from here - carrying an adult female (or male, if it was an option) by airplane is possible - but stressful to the dog, and very, very expensive. Also, most airline companies ask for reservations for dogs well in advance - this can be difficult to time with a female's cycle.

I'd be very interested to see the evolution of the process and local CSV population if breeders in Spain (or elsewhere) begin using AI as a means of breeding.

Best wishes,
Marcy
GalomyOak jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 20:06   #10
Nebulosa
Moderator
 
Nebulosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rio Grande do Sul
Posts: 1,332
Send a message via ICQ to Nebulosa Send a message via MSN to Nebulosa Send a message via Skype™ to Nebulosa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildenmorgen View Post

Obviously, driving to Europe is out of the question from here - carrying an adult female (or male, if it was an option) by airplane is possible - but stressful to the dog, and very, very expensive. Also, most airline companies ask for reservations for dogs well in advance - this can be difficult to time with a female's cycle.

I'd be very interested to see the evolution of the process and local CSV population if breeders in Spain (or elsewhere) begin using AI as a means of breeding.
The same problem here, no wonder why
I was searching for the possibility to use frozen semem, but seems that it still didn't develope well and the problem is not only the small percentage to the female be pregnant, as the fact we will need to anesthesie the female for make the insemination.
Mainly its about to 30% of chances of the female be pregnant with frozen semmem, I read somethings about evolutions in this area, turning possible to upper this percentage for 60% ( much better) but still I have not enough information about it.
For bring cold sperm we will have about 48 hours for transport untill make the insemination, by our rules its simply impossible as the burocracy can make you lost days for took out the semmem of the airport, sometimes you will never be able to see it.
Anyway, 48 hours when we talk about travel over continents, you wil need to have much luck to have the female in the properlly day exactly when you back home, if not have any delay.

So, the way would be travel with the female, very stressfull thing that without doubts can make the female change her heath, if be everything all right, we will need to back with the female in the correct day and still you will have the possibility of the female absorbs the puppies for stress in the back trip, pretty common in Bernese Mountain Dogs for exemple.

So, the best way would be talk with a breeder, chose a male and try to bring it here for a time, let this male mate the females and back with him after.
But I wonder how many breeders would allow it
__________________
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/signaturepics/sigpic1100_1.gif
Nebulosa jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 20:38   #11
GalomyOak
Howling Member
 
GalomyOak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 436
Send a message via Skype™ to GalomyOak
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
The same problem here, no wonder why
I was searching for the possibility to use frozen semem, but seems that it still didn't develope well and the problem is not only the small percentage to the female be pregnant, as the fact we will need to anesthesie the female for make the insemination.
Mainly its about to 30% of chances of the female be pregnant with frozen semmem, I read somethings about evolutions in this area, turning possible to upper this percentage for 60% ( much better) but still I have not enough information about it.
For bring cold sperm we will have about 48 hours for transport untill make the insemination, by our rules its simply impossible as the burocracy can make you lost days for took out the semmem of the airport, sometimes you will never be able to see it.
Anyway, 48 hours when we talk about travel over continents, you wil need to have much luck to have the female in the properlly day exactly when you back home, if not have any delay.

So, the way would be travel with the female, very stressfull thing that without doubts can make the female change her heath, if be everything all right, we will need to back with the female in the correct day and still you will have the possibility of the female absorbs the puppies for stress in the back trip, pretty common in Bernese Mountain Dogs for exemple.

So, the best way would be talk with a breeder, chose a male and try to bring it here for a time, let this male mate the females and back with him after.
But I wonder how many breeders would allow it
I wonder - does the effectiveness of AI differ between different breeds? For example, I know some breeders of working dogs (for actual work, not just show - mostly GSD, but also Rottweiler, etc.) use AI here with semen from European dogs (because it is difficult in many cases to find good working dogs in the US) and they seem to have good results, I guess - or they wouldn't keep doing it, I suppose. But, I know our breed is different...so, maybe it would be less effective...

Haha - Paula, maybe we can make a "real" plan here.... Maybe you and I can talk to our females, and convince them to come into heat at the same time - and then, we can make plans to bring all of our dogs to a mid-point between Brazil and the US - somewhere nice and with many comforts - Cancun maybe? And then, we can pay to bring a nice male along with his owner - and we can all take a holiday - wolfdogs, beaches, and happy times!!!

Ahhhh...back to reality...in truth, I think you are right - it would be most efficient to bring a male across the ocean...

Marcy
GalomyOak jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2009, 21:53   #12
Nebulosa
Moderator
 
Nebulosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Rio Grande do Sul
Posts: 1,332
Send a message via ICQ to Nebulosa Send a message via MSN to Nebulosa Send a message via Skype™ to Nebulosa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildenmorgen View Post
I wonder - does the effectiveness of AI differ between different breeds? For example, I know some breeders of working dogs (for actual work, not just show - mostly GSD, but also Rottweiler, etc.) use AI here with semen from European dogs (because it is difficult in many cases to find good working dogs in the US) and they seem to have good results, I guess - or they wouldn't keep doing it, I suppose. But, I know our breed is different...so, maybe it would be less effective...
Do you know if its with frozen semem or with he cold one?
The cold semen normally is very effective and don't need the anesthesie, but its only 48 hours for make everything after it be collected, I know some people breeder of Deutche dogge that made it with sucess, but the person who brings the semem was a "well know" person of the airport, so, they could jump the burocratic part, exactly what impeaches the others "mere mortal BR breeders" to make the IA with cold semem, but its a problem for me, different for you.
The main problem in breed difference is the wolfdog heath, but its not impossible when we already have cases with positive results, like the litter of La Llamada Del Lobo kennel.

Quote:
Haha - Paula, maybe we can make a "real" plan here.... Maybe you and I can talk to our females, and convince them to come into heat at the same time - and then, we can make plans to bring all of our dogs to a mid-point between Brazil and the US - somewhere nice and with many comforts - Cancun maybe? And then, we can pay to bring a nice male along with his owner - and we can all take a holiday - wolfdogs, beaches, and happy times!!!
Dreaming holidays , next time, I cant forghet to play in the EU lottery if its get accumulate.

Quote:
Ahhhh...back to reality...in truth, I think you are right - it would be most efficient to bring a male across the ocean...

Marcy
So far I think its the better way of be sure that we will not expent a lot of money and time for nothing, because in this case, even if the male don't want to cover, we can make the IA direct in the female, with 100% fresh semmen and how many times its be need, without count that the same male can cover much more females than only 1. We will only need to convince the owner to accept it
__________________
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/signaturepics/sigpic1100_1.gif
Nebulosa jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 01:33   #13
solowolf
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos2207 View Post
Sorry Solowolf, I went to Lituania for Ituborys Girios Dvasia, and to Germany for Emba von der wolfranch and the past month I went to Czech Republic for to do one mate. Do you think that you can say me that the problem is that we don´t want to travel?

I see that you went to Holland and France for mate with your dogs. Next to UK.

I think that the problem is that the breeders should be serious and responsible. The breders should use the very good hd lines and, to use the most wolfish wolfdogs and with good character. This is my idea for breeding.

How many wolfdogs are with this characteristics? very very few. And too long from Spain. The fly to travel is necessary. This is very expensive because you need to buy the fly the last minute and this is very expensive. The AI is the unique option for the serious and responsible Bredeers of Spain.

If you want to breeding only for breeding, without the best wolfdogs, is very easy and not expensive. If you want that improve the breed the AI is necesary.
ok so you are willing to travel as i have just been to Hungry to pick up dog by car as air travel i dont like for my dogs,only 16 hr drive, the dog Iused in Holland give me more wolfish looking dogs and produced great coats, this dog had all health tests as did my bitch, you want the best as do we all,you say that you want good HD lines, most wolfish looking ,good character, that would be nice,,,, you must then also agree with me on the changing of the czech as a breed as there are many variations of this breed now, one only has to look at the pictures on this site, the breed varies alot, from short coats to long coats, from the small thin to the large, also a lot more health problems over last 10 years,Ai is ok if you can get premission from the FCI,but it may be hard as the main gene pool is in Europe, I have used AI for thr Akita as gene pool in uk was low, straws from USA where sent and my vet done this it was good sucess with 8 puppies being produced,there are other types of wolfdogs now available in Europe, even in Spain there are now some, good luck with your search. i will be watching for your progress, regards pacino
solowolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2009, 00:07   #14
kaiku
www.lagretosa.jimdo.com
 
kaiku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: León
Posts: 30
Send a message via MSN to kaiku Send a message via Skype™ to kaiku
Default

I think that the insemination is a good good option for the spanish breeders. It's good for open lines, because there are many people that cannot travel to make a mount.
kaiku jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2009, 17:20   #15
GalomyOak
Howling Member
 
GalomyOak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 436
Send a message via Skype™ to GalomyOak
Default

I found this article on the topic of AI in dogs while browsing the topic - I found it to be very descriptive (but, I am no vet, so I can't guarantee it's accuracy, or how up to date it is ). So many considerations!!!

http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com...s%20frozen.htm

Best Wishes,
Marcy
__________________
"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com
GalomyOak jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 02:02   #16
carlos2207
Junior Member
 
carlos2207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 48
Default

Thank for the paper. I think that the First problem that have the spanish breeders is the negative of the breeder of the other countries for the IA. Sincerely I don´t understan why in 2009 years in this breed the breeders not let the IA. Pleased anyone can say me this reason?
carlos2207 jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2009, 10:10   #17
michaelundinaeichhorn
Senior Member
 
michaelundinaeichhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bad Dürkheim
Posts: 2,250
Default

The point why I am not a fan of regular used AI (in the here discussed case it has a good reason) is that in very many breeds it is used because the dogs aren´t able any longer to reproduce without this help. The bitches don´t show a normal heat or fight the male, the males aren´t able to get on the back of the female in mating position, the males aren´t interested in the bitches and so on. These problems are heritable to a very high amount, the dogs are kept in breeding with AI out of the usual reasons, being a multichampion etc.
If you use AI as a normal way to reproduce these problems are likely to occure sooner or later and being realistic I don´t think that the owners of these dogs will take them out of breeding.

Ina
michaelundinaeichhorn jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2009, 00:24   #18
GalomyOak
Howling Member
 
GalomyOak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 436
Send a message via Skype™ to GalomyOak
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
...If you use AI as a normal way to reproduce these problems are likely to occure sooner or later and being realistic I don´t think that the owners of these dogs will take them out of breeding.

Ina
This is a very good point also...one that I had never really considered. I totally agree with this point. But, I guess maybe it would be less of a problem with established stud/brood dogs who had proven themselves in the "natural" way before being used for AI? Maybe this could be a criterion for males and females if AI were to start being used (and only in cases of distance, not to mask a breeding or genetic problem) within the breed...I guess once again, it would come back to the regulation of an international committee...

I guess another concern might be false identity of the male (in trying to breed mixes, perhaps...) Is there any kind of DNA test requirement (to establish verified parents) from the FCI with AI? In the US, it is required of imported sperm (and maybe also domestic, I forget...) and also imported dogs (who breed naturally) to have a valid DNA result from both parents before the AKC will register a litter.
__________________
"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com
GalomyOak jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2009, 21:02   #19
kaiku
www.lagretosa.jimdo.com
 
kaiku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: León
Posts: 30
Send a message via MSN to kaiku Send a message via Skype™ to kaiku
Default

I agree with Wildenmorge. I think that we shouldn't take the habit of making the AI when it comes to litters in the same country, I don't agree to AI, but when there is much distance in between, shouldn't be ruled out and more in a country like ours, with very few CSW.

Greetings
kaiku jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2009, 15:17   #20
carlos2207
Junior Member
 
carlos2207's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 48
Default

I am agree with Ina and Kaiku and Wildenmorgen. Certainly the AI is not perfect and will have some problems. But I think that the AI if it is doing correctly is the best options for the countries that not have many quality wolfdogs.

To go to the other countries with the female for to do the mate is very stressfull for the female and is very probabily that is not pregnat. This summer I went with Emba to Praha for to do one mate and when I arrived to Spain the fly company losed Emba. And the next day I recupered Emba. More than 24 hours one animal in one transportin without water.

Many people not want the AI. I contacted with many breders for to do the AI and ALL not want to do de AI. Is better that the breders of Spain repeat many times the same litter? Is this the better???? In what year we lives?? Sincerely I don´t understand it

Last edited by carlos2207; 31-08-2009 at 15:55.
carlos2207 jest offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org