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Old 11-10-2002, 12:02   #41
Tonje
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Dear Mr. Werner,
I see that you now are a member of the CSV-list, though your introduction of
yourself certainly was brief.

I find it highly commendable that you are a member of this list. Here you will
find many people with CSVs, and even Saarlos-owners and also, perhaps, will
find true verification of wolfdog properties (though of course such
verification may be subjective, but you don't seem to mind that when it comes
to your own beliefs, so I suppose that works both ways). It will probably also
save you the trouble of calling Per Olav a liar in writing in public (a great
advantage with closed lists, you can keep such things within "the family").

Just to help you along, so to speak, I can inform the other list members that
Mr. Werner finds CSVs and SWs very dangerous, too dangerous to be allowed in
Norway, as he has informed the authorities and explained on television. There
are several things he finds extremely worrying. Firstly that they are hybrids
(as defined by the Swedish Kennel Club) and, as we all know, hybrids are not
acceptable. Another is the CSVs' and SWs' extreme tendency to hunt, so
especially children will be in severe danger. Also he is worried that the
wolfdogs will threaten the wild wolves, as hybridisation is much more probable
with wolfdogs and furthermore offspring of wolves-wolfdogs have a much higher
survival rate than hybrids between wolves and other dog breeds. In fact he
suspects, as he has informed the authorities, that a certain wolf pack in
south eastern Norway, most probably are hybrids of SW and wolf, since there is
a SW owner who lives in the region. He bases his suspicion on that these
wolves behave like SWs (eg. killing sheep close to a village) and that they
are much more similar in appearance to SW-wolf hybrids than any other form of
hybrid.

If you care to respond to Mr. Werners points of concern, be aware that Mr.
Werner will not accept comparison to dog breeds he himself has no experience
with. So you can not compare with sighthounds(greyhounds, borzois etc.) or any
of the polar breeds, but should restrict yourselves to poodle, labrador, GSD
and rottweiler - perhaps you could stretch it to Riesens and other retrievers
as Mr. Werner is a rescue dog instructor, and therefore should have experience
with these breeds as well.

Even though Mr. Werner may not be a formal representative for the Norwegian
Rescue Dogs organisation in this issue, it should be noted that the
authorities have taken his letter of warning to them, very seriously as he has
not neglected to inform them that he is very experienced, has seen SWs and
CSVs in action and is a rescue dog instructor for the Norwegian Rescue Dogs
organisation.

Regards Tonje

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Old 11-10-2002, 21:00   #42
Tina
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Quote:
Obviously we have an active mole in our basement
what a shame that some people have to be that way ;(
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Old 11-10-2002, 22:42   #43
Minna
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Hi Ben and all CsV Friends,

There seem to be "interesting" people on this mailing list. We don't
know if all of you can be considered as CsV friends yet ... We learned
that Ben Werner assumes CsV as dangerous breed and not suitable as
family dog. Well, we have two children and two CsVs. We have owned dogs
through all of our lives among them dogs much less suitable as family
dogs than our CsVs. Our experience with our two CsVs is that they love
children above all.

What comes to hunting, our CsVs are certainly not the most keen ones.
We know many German and Belgium Shepherds that hunt everything that
moves fast - including children. That we have never experienced with our
CsVs. They can make a short run after a deer or cat, but they soon come
back. And they have never chased after children, joggers, bicycles and a
like.

There are two photos of our much loved dogs.

Best regards, Minna and Risto
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Old 11-10-2002, 23:19   #44
catar2catars
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Dear Mr. Werner.

If just finished reading Your article on a Norwegion http about Your opinion
of mixing wolves with swh and csv.(complete anti predator article? Are You a
hunter Mr. Werner!)
It is complete nonsens and its very easy to replace the word csv and swh in
your article by for instance german shephard or andy kind of big dog breed.
Im pretty sure You never saw a real saarloos wolfdog and even maby not real
CSV.
On oktober 26 the Belgian Saarloos wolfdog has her yearly club reunion, and
by this I invite You to come and see, there will alse be some CSV's
The day after this , oktober 27, we walk , unleached with about 20 to 25
wolfdogs in a forest nearby, and for this event I also invite You so you can
see for Yourself how CSV and SWH really are .


Greets,
Roger.


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Old 12-10-2002, 01:20   #45
Per Olav
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Hi to you all.

Maybe Mr. Werner has made us an unexpected favor :-)

Yesterday and today I called our most acknowledged ethologist, an expert
of genetics and a lawyer.
The two experts concluded unanimously Mr. Werners lack of knowledge of the
subject, and of his way of providing our authorities false
information. They will forward a letter to the Norwegian authorities on
the matter. The lawyer was horrified by Mr. Werners accusations and adviced
to take him to court.

Next week I'm going to see this lawyer. By that we will have a decision of
the court not only of Mr. Werners personal vendetta, but every aspect of
the subject of the legality of importing and keeping of our dogs, the
genetic aspect and the enviromental threat these dogs might cause. Such a
trial should lead to some interresting conclusions, including the
credibility of Mr. Werner.

I'll keep you all informed, and as previously mentioned, any mails of
importance regarding the Norwegian proposal of banning the CsW should be
addressed to me, and not published on this list.
The Saarloos owner is receving information by other channels, but every
piece of information is gratefully received.

---
Per Olav
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Old 12-10-2002, 01:44   #46
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Default Norwegian situation - Parker Adams?

Quote:
Next week I'm going to see this lawyer. By that we will have a decision of
the court not only of Mr. Werners personal vendetta, but every aspect of
the subject of the legality of importing and keeping of our dogs, the
genetic aspect and the enviromental threat these dogs might cause. Such a
trial should lead to some interresting conclusions, including the
credibility of Mr. Werner.
I think that is WONDERFUL news! Out here we also have people that pretend to
know something that they know nothing about .. but unfortunately, they are
allowed to publicly slander anything they want to (including your dogs) and
nobody can do anything ;(
One such person we know as Parker Adams, he lives in Pennsylvania USA .. and
he claims to know most of you and says he has traveled there many times and
seem how terrible the temperaments are on these dogs. He has even been
consulted on wolf and wolfdog behavior for a book that is being written in
Canada. I have been thrilled to be here and see for myself (from people that
own them) what wonderful companions they can be

I am going to copy for your records a little bit from this persons notes to
me;

Quote:
[email protected]</A> writes:

There were three
Vlciaks in the US. One died of brain cancer. The owner of one of the
other two dogs is having problems with local dog control and Wildlife officials in
his state because of the "wolf" in the dog even though the breed is FCI
recognized.
I have many more letters .. but the one below was the first he sent me after
I joined your list to learn more about your wonderful breed.

Quote:
I am also someone
who believes based on that 25 years experience dealing with wolfdogs and
observing numerous shilohs in person and having seen pictures of many of the
Baker Line Dogs and Samson Woo that there is substantive wolfdog blood in
the shiloh. Obvously I cannot prove it but I highly suspect it. To that
end I certainly hope that you are not thinking about using a Vlciak as NB
for the shiloh. If you go down that path then you will totally F_ _ _ _ Up
this breed in an even worse direction than it is heading right now. I have
been to Slovakia where the best Vlciaks come from and I can tell you that
they are a handfull and still act like very high content American wolfdogs.
I recently read a study that suggests that regardless of the breeding that
once the wolf has been crossed with the dog that approximately 38% of the
behavioral genetics remains. Throw that into the Shilohs mix then you will
really be playing Russian Roulette. If you think you have behavioral
problems with your dogs now you ain't seen nothing yet. There were three
Vlciaks in the US. One died of brain cancer. The owner of one of the other
two dogs is having problems with local dog control and Wildlife officials in
his state because of the "wolf" in the dog even though the breed is FCI
recognized. I warned him about that. The world is small so I hope you
don't do the wrong thing. The CSV world is even smaller and I hear about
almost all of the American inquiries so I will know if you acquire one. I
have other wolf friends who were interested in the Vlciak until I had the
opportunity to see several of them and told them what I thought. I am
merely passing along my thoughts to you.
Is this person someone that all of you know? He has mentioned Margo and Per
Olav among others in his notes to me.

BTW the F____ word is not a nice one here in America ;(
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Old 12-10-2002, 01:57   #47
Per Olav
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Default Norwegian situation - Parker Adams?

Hi.

Mr. Parker Adams has been on this list for a while :-)
I'm sure someone can tell more, but by now it's close to 1 AM and the bed
is calling :-)
Bye for now..

---
Per Olav
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Old 12-10-2002, 06:48   #48
Parker
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Default Norwegian situation - Parker Adams?

Hi Per,

You are right, I have been on this list since early 1999 and I would like to
explain the email that I sent privately to Tina Barber or "Ma Shiloh" by her
email name here on this egroup. First of all, I am the first to admit that
my email was an overexaggeration (embellishment) of the truth. However, I
did it for a good reason.

Tina Barber is the founder of a nice American breed of dog called a Shiloh
Shepherd. I myself have one but I did not get it from a breeder affiliated
with Ms. Barber for reasons that will become apparent below. The foundation
stock is German shepherd, Alaskan malamute, white German shepherd and other
dog breeds that I am not sure of. There is also speculation and allegation
that there is wolf blood from an American wolfhybrid mixed in somewhere
along the line. Many of the lines of Shilohs have the physical conformation
and behavioral traits of American wolf hybrids. This is based on my
observation of many Shiloh over the last three years and the fact that I
have over 25 years experience with wolves and wolfdogs here in the United
States. Over the last year or so word has gotten out among the Shiloh
shepherd owners that I have experience with wolves and wolfdogs. Some of it
has come from my own inquiry about wolf behavior based on my observations of
the many Shiloh shepherds that I have seen in person over the last three
years.

Because of my experience with wolves, I have received emails, phone calls
and personal visits to my house from people who own shilohs and have had
behavioral problems that they have not seen before in other breeds of dogs
and have not been able to correct or they try to use traditional (forceful)
training methods with poor or disastrous results. Some of these people are
just regular dog owners, some train dogs in Schutzhund, search and rescue,
agility and obedience. Others work with dogs that have behavioral problems.
All of these people have suspected wolf like behavior and that is why they
have contacted me looking for an explanation and help with their problems.
The problem lies in the fact that we only suspect and cannot prove that
there is wolf blood in the Shiloh. Ms. Barber emphatically denies it. It
is a concern to me because if as I suspect, many of the shiloh lines have
wolf genetics then they need to be handled differently than the average dog.
I would hate to continue to see these dogs going to people who do not have
the skills, patience and knowledge to raise a dog with enough wolf blood in
it that it exhibits wolf behavior. I don't have to tell any of you that
the CSV is not a breed for a first time dog owner unless that person has
been well educated and can rely on other owners for help. Some of the
shilohs appear to fit into this category.

With regard to Ms. Barber posting my email and making accusations about me
without knowing the facts, it is not surprising to me at all. I think that
fact that most of the shiloh shepherd breeders do not want to have anything
to do with her speaks for itself as to her integrity or lack of it. All you
have to do is log onto one of many egroups the shiloh zone or shilohs list
to name a couple and you can see for yourself. Her posting of my email on
your egroup and her attempt to stir all of you up and get mad at me is a
perfect example of her underhanded behavior. It does not deserve any more
attention.

When I saw that Ms, Barber had shown up on this egroup, I became afraid that
she would attempt to get a CSV and use it to cross into the Shiloh shepherd
breed. I emailed Ms Barber and made her aware that there were three CSVs in
the US and that one had died of brain cancer. She asked me for the email
addresses of the three people and I told her if she wanted the information
that she had to get it from Pavel or Margo because I was not going to give
it to her. Therefore that is the reference I made to other CSV people. My
email to Ms. Barber was of such a tone and nature and embellishment of the
truth that I had hoped to discourage her from trying to obtain a CSV and use
it for breeding with shilohs. It is my understanding through second hand
information that people have passed along to me that in the past in the
early 1990s Ms. Barber has given or sold some of her shilohs to wolf hybrid
breeders here in the United States and let the shilohs be used as breeding
stock for other wolf hybrids. Therefore, that is why my email that she
posted reads as it does.

My personal exposure to wolves dates back to the late 1960's when a man
named Jack Lynch inherited the Buffalo wolves from Dr. E.H. McCleery in Kane
Pennsylvania near where I grew up. I have personally owned wolfdogs of
various low and high percentages and a pure wolf since the early 1980s. I
know many people that can vouch for my background and experience and can
give you email addresses of people that can confirm my background. I
believe Ann Dresselhaus who has been posting recently knows Monty Sloan and
Terry Jenkins who are two of the most experienced and knowledgeable wolf
people in the United States. These are also two people that Ann can contact
that can vouch for me. Lastly, I have spoken with a few people who live in
Canada that own Shilohs that exhibit wolf behavior. To the best of my
knowledge none of them are writing books and I am not consulting with them
on that.

With regard to meeting CSVs in person, I work for an American company that
has a business in Kosice in the Republic of Slovakia. Prior to one of my
trips to Slovakia, through this egroup I made contact with Ms. Sona
Bognarova. Due to Sona's kindness, she made arrangements with one of my
Slovak work colleagues for me to meet Mr. Nagy, a well respected CSV owner
and trainer in Slovakia . Mr. Nagy took me around and showed me several
CSVs owned by people who live just outside of Kosice. The CSVs that I met
in person, exhibited much more wolf behavior than dog behavior. This may
have been due to the specific lines of CSVs or due to the way they were
raised or a combination of the two. Anyway, both Sona and Mr. Nagy told me
that there are many other CSVs that are very well socialized and do not act
nearly as wolf like as these particular dogs. What I did learn from my
visit with Mr. Nagy and the owners of these dogs is that the CSV is
generally like an American wolfdog in that you have to have the knowledge
and experience to raise a CSV properly. This is not a dog for somebody that
wants a Golden Retriever. To the credit of all of you, that has also been
my impression since I joined this egroup in 1999. I have always been very
impressed with the honesty and candor that all of you express about the
temperament and ownership requirements of a CSV.

Anyway, I am sorry for the long post. However, I just wanted the
opportunity to explain what actually transpired through a series of a couple
of private emails and the reason why I embellished the truth. I apologize
if I offended any of you and the CSV. My intent was not to discredit the
CSV but to prevent the CSV from being used in breeding by the wrong people
for the wrong reasons.

Dovidenia.
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Old 12-10-2002, 08:38   #49
Pavel
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Hi,
am little bit disgusted with the momentaly campaign in Norway. Its me
very sorry, but I dont understand norwegian and all informations comming
to me through my friends. But I feel, that all people, which argumentate
against our dogs, have no experience with it. I know only one person
from Norway, which visited country of origin of Czechoslovakian wolfdogs
- Per Olav Christensen. Althrough, that he dont have so much experiences
with our dogs (exc. his own CsW), its only he, who can speak about CsW
in Norway. All others make the decisions and publish own feeling "from
green table" without any personal practical knowledges and experiences.
I dont know nobody from this people, but I strongly recommended -
please, before you publish something about our dogs, make sure about
really situation of CsW. Maximaly 10 CsW in whole Scandinavia (I dont
know exact number now), its not whole population and its not enought
large sample for make a generally opinion about whole breed. Country of
origin of CsW is Czechoslovakia, so that today you have possibility to
visit 2 countries of origin (Czech and Slovakia). Only here you can see
representatively sample of CsW.
Sure, we dont have only perfect dogs. In population is more problematic
individuals, but they are not typicaly individuals of our breed. Read
first the standard and today recommendation of FCI. All agressive dogs
must be eliminate from breed. And we do it. On October 26th we have a
bonitation and meeting of Club in Czech (Prague). Every time we have
here some visitors from other countries. You are welcome. You can see
more, then 20 dogs (sometimes more) by bonitation and character test.
You can speak here with lot of most experienced CsW breeders, owners,
trainers and with Club experts (Mr. Hartl, Club judges, breeding
consultants etc.). Am always ready to help you with translation.

Pavel

PS : And one notice more. If somebody come from so far, like Norway,
have a specialy chance on the weekend October 26th-27th, because on
Sunday 27th we organisate a competition and meeting of CsW. Competition
is according a basic czech rules and will participate as well a CsW,
which dont have a special training, which dont visited a dog schoools.
Here can be see, how is character and obedience by not specialy traned
wolfdogs.

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Old 12-10-2002, 09:56   #50
Xhrista
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Quote:
Only here you can see representatively sample of CsW.
you where right

Quote:
Sure, we dont have only perfect dogs. In population is more
problematic individuals, but they are not typicaly individuals of our
breed. Read first the standard and today recommendation of FCI. All
agressive dogs must be eliminate from breed.
Don't forget there are populations in other countries and there are
breeders they do it for money,so the dogs are buyed by the wrong
people,the same is with SWH.
They used or lovely dogs to cross with other like White Sheperds and
Husky's,it's a shame but they do it.
I told you befor some people like to have agressive dogs.

Christa
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Old 12-10-2002, 12:17   #51
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Quote:
May I suggest a new test to be added to improve the character of the
on-going wolf-like dog breeds and that is -->
In the Netherlands we have a test for some breeds ,so then can see of
the dog is agressive,if he or she is,you 're not allowed to breed.We
don't have to do the test with the Wolfdogs,because they aren't known
as agressive.

Christa
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Old 12-10-2002, 13:17   #52
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Hi,

Quote:
May I suggest a new test to be added to improve the character of the
on-going wolf-like dog breeds and that is --> a working title of some
kind. When VonSeph. was developing the GSD he picked not only for looks
(conformation) but for working ability.
Actually the whole CzW breed were developed in regards to its usefulness. As
you know the breeding plan of CzW was under control of Czechoslovakian army
and they made very strict selection during this breeding. The exterior of
the wolf was very important for the army because together with the exterior
the CzW inherited endurance of the wolves and also their ability to adapt to
hard weather conditions. However the main goal for continuing the breeding
was to make the wolfdogs trainable. First crosses were very hard to train
but with special selection the army was able to choose those individuals
which are promissing for work on the border. The true is the army had no
scruples during the selection and there were no such cases as it could
happen when the normal people breed the dogs and say for example "this dog
is aggressive but so beautifull .... maybe we should breed him?". There were
no such dilemmas in army... All wolfdogs which appeared useless in regards
to work were excluded from the breeding. As far as I know every dog which
were used in breeding needed a working title. This conditions changed
recently when the civilians began to breed the CzW and the army was not
longer interested in continuing the breeding. However you should always have
in mind that for a few dozens of years this breed was developed by army in
regards to its working abilities.

Greetings,
Przemek
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Old 12-10-2002, 15:44   #53
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Hello Przemek

That's what I call useful information.
You'll have my 2 cents :-)
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Old 13-10-2002, 10:12   #54
Per Olav
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Default Norwegian situation

Hi.

The Norwegian situation is a more complex one and a "heavenly mix" of
different ingredients.
One is the upcomming proposal of a new "dog law" and its ban of dangerous
breeds/dog.
In a received letter from The Minister of Justice, The Minister writes
something like : It is dependent of the results of the evaluation process
wether these breeds [CsW and SW] are concidered dangerous or not. If the
conclusion is in disfavour of the breeds, the nex step is to decide what
to do with those species already imported to our country.

Another moment is the ongoing debate related to wolves and wolv-dog
hybrids. Tonje has written a mail on the subject. This is copied below
this information.
Mr Ben Werner advocate both sides of the opositions arguments, both the one
of dangerous breeds as well as that of wolf-wolf dog hybrids.

Myself I have not been aware of the manic resistance against our breeds
from certain individuals and groups until recently. On the contrary -
people have been most curious and friendly but the last months the media
has been publishing several unfriendly articles about the subject, and our
main television channel has produced a most unfriendly feature. Mr Werner
was intervied as an expert on our breed, most probably due to an article of
his, published on a net page related to banning of "dangerous" breeds.

Regards

Per Olav
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Old 13-10-2002, 19:11   #55
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I must say that being here in the UK, as a silent reader of the list. I
would dearly love a CsW or SW as a pet and companion in my family. I find it
upsetting that no matter where, a breed that is different is a target for
those who 'claim' they are experts. I myself couldn't trust a Labrador as
the temperment is not what it was and are well known for biting children but
they are pushed as being family pets. I really hope that this 'dog
holocaust' comes to an end.
laura
-----
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Old 13-10-2002, 21:17   #56
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Quote:
Myself I have not been aware of the manic resistance against our breeds
from certain individuals and groups until recently. On the contrary -
people have been most curious and friendly but the last months the media
has been publishing several unfriendly articles about the subject, and our
main television channel has produced a most unfriendly feature. Mr. Werner
was intervied as an expert on our breed, most probably due to an article of his, published on a net page related to banning of "dangerous" breeds.
We have had this terrible problem in the USA too. Because of a very small
group of people like Mr. Werner there are many states that basically state
that even if a 'dog" has 1% "wolfblood" he must be classified as a wolfdog!
I personally know of one man in NYC that was crossing Husky's and Shepherds
(both parents AKC registered within their own breed) and he sold these pups
claiming that they were "low percentage" wolfdogs. Because he wanted to get
more money for the pups he had! One of them that he sold to a nice family
(a very nice 2 year old pet) had to have his head removed for testing (for
rabies) because the neighbors said he had wolf in him, and had to be
destroyed ;( This breeder even tried going to court to prove that he was a
liar & that there was NO wolfblood in this dog, but they did not listen!

People in this country seem to get hysterical when they hear the word "wolf"
.... so most of the serious breeders have to go "underground" and carefully
select future owners that live in states that are not as bad YET .. but I can
see it happening here & in Canada too .. because of ignorant fools that know
nothing, but talk a lot ;(

Actually that was one of the reasons that I chose to investigate your breed
more carefully. I have a friend here that is training dogs for a new movie
about the Hobo dogs, and was looking for dogs that resembled London. <A HREF="http://www.cedarwoods-k9.com/eisenmann/">
Charles Eisenmann Books - The Littlest Hobo - German Shepherd Dogs</A> I hope
this link works for you, if not you can go to
Http://www.cedarwoods-k9.com/eisenmann

Since your dogs look similar and are FCI recognized, I thought that my
friends would be interested in possibly Importing a few to train for the new
movie. I did ask my brother to contact some of his friends in Czechoslovakia
and asked him to send me more information about this wonderful breed. After
the reports & pictures I received, I was very excited .. especially when I
got reports back that Ing. Karel Hartel thought it would be a wonderful idea.
That is why I found your list & wanted to join to ask more questions (for my
own genetic knowledge as well) but when I realized that you have Parker on
your list, we all felt that it would not be good to go any further with any
potential hopes for the movie ;(
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Old 13-10-2002, 21:38   #57
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Default Norwegian situation - Jim & the Shiloh Shepherds

Quote:
I really hope that this 'dog
holocaust' comes to an end.
laura
I have been watching it in this country for over 40 years .. and it only
seems to get worst ;(

just mention the word 'wolf" out here and everyone panics ;(

this happened to my group several months ago, may I share one of the answer
posts that was written by one of our REAL experts out here to my group of
Shiloh owners & breeders?

Little Red Riding Hood syndrome... EVERYONE Please
READ!


I have to thank all of you, and especially the ones who started the
rumors of the Big Bad Wolf infiltrating the Shiloh's. I have been
laughing my butt off going through all the posts. My name is Jim
Hopkin. Rambo McGuire is my dog. He is deceased now, and is sorely
missed. He died from an over-reaction to anesthesia. He was one of the
best dogs I ever had. He is PURE DOG, NOT a drop of wolfblood in him
that VonStephanitz didn't personally put in his ancestors. He is AKC
all the way. Tina now has a copy of his AKC papers. He is Chani and
Elijah's sire, both of which were born in my house, Elijah (OFA
excellent)on my bed in the middle of the night (don't you just love it
when that happens):-). Elijah and Chani's dams are mine too and are
DOGS. Sorry, no wolfblood in these either. Jett, Elija's dam is at my
feet as I type this. She is a solid black GSD, just turned 11 years
old and can still run like the wind, thus her name, Jett. She dates
back to Phantom vonLeberland, a very famous solid black Champion whose
picture is in most of your good GSD books. Susha was neutered due to
her age and complications from her one litter which produced Chani.
She is a sable bitch and a pretty hard bitch. My ex-girlfriend has her
now that she doesn't have me to protect her. She is pure SHILOH.
Her mom is Starr, my FIRST Shiloh that I got from Tina more than 12
years ago and is an AKC GSD. Yes, the OLD Shiloh's HAD AKC papers. I
have got to laugh.... hasn't anyone ever watched Discovery channel or
seen some of the good picture books about wolves? Any dummy can tell a
silly dog from a wolf if they just LOOK at them. Even a Wolfdog
(hybrid is a misnomer as dogs are a subspecies of wolf) retains WOLF
traits down to 10-15% that are undeniable. Take a look at Horand
(Hektor)SV#1 if you have access to any of VonStephanitz old books.
"Word and Picture".. ring any bells? Hektor has a pure wolf
grandmother. Ok, for all you conspiracy freaks out there,
VonStephanitz is the guy who INVENTED the G.S.D.in the early part of
the last century. His favorite dog, Hektor, he registered as the first
dog in his registry. SV#1. ALL decent G.S.D. can trace back to him. So
you all have wolfdogs already and didn't know it? Look at his picture
when you find one... that's a quarter wolf. See any of those around
your house? No? well that G.S.D. or Shiloh Shepherd you have lounging
on the couch is probably the closest you will ever get to a wolf. Be
happy that there was a guy smart enough(100 years ago) to breed out
the undesirable wolf traits so you can have an intelligent, loyal,
strong, protective animal as a family member who doesn't thirst for
your blood while you soundly sleep. I'm sorry, that was a little
sarcastic, but I have heard this all before.. bloodthirsty visions of
danger and havoc because of God's dog. I just happen to know a wee bit
about Wolfdogs and wolves as I have served on the Board of Directors
as Director of Standards for the USAWA, the United States American
Wolfdog Association for over 16 years. In fact, the reason I became
interested in Shiloh Shepherds in the late 1980's was due to the fact
that I was searching for a sound, strong, intelligent and loyal breed
of dog with a high "willingness to please" to put INTO MY Wolfdogs.
You see, generally, Wolfdogs lack one thing...... a willingness to
please. Wolves are timid by nature. Hard to believe but true. They are
horrible at protection and are darn near impossible to housebreak. My
idea was to bring some stable DOG genes into my Wolfdogs and get some
animals with a willingness to please. Since I knew the GSD was already
a breed with recent Wolf heritage I searched all over America for the
BEST "old type" GSD and I found 2 places that had GSD that fit my
strict requirements, Tina being one of them. NONE of the big American
show kennels had anything I wanted. I gave up my "project" when my
last Wolfdog passed away at 14 years of age. I am now thoroughly
satisfied and only have G.S.D. and am thrilled that they are from
wolves, even if it was over 100 years ago that their ancestors roamed
the European continent, wild and free. NONE of my dogs have ANY
wolfblood that isn't 100 years old, not one of them. Neither does
Elijah or Chani or BoDog. As far as I know, and I know a few hundred
wolfdogs personally from my work with USAWA, VonStephanitz was the
last person to successfully create a reliable dog breed using
wolfblood. Too bad he didn't live long enough to see the end result of
his efforts.I know Tina likes wolves, and Lisa too, but like me they
know that adding wolfblood to a dog is not only unnecessary but just
plain dumb if you are trying to improve the best darn dog breed
anywhere, the Shiloh Shepherd. I can document everything above for any
skeptics out there. I have a copy of the ORIGINAL stud books, from
Germany, with pictures and lineage's, breedings and VonStephanitz notes
and charts that I tracked over 2 continents, over a period of 2 solid
years from a rumor I heard once from a GSD breeder. My grandkids,
should I have any (my daughter is 17)will get those books. They prove
the origins of the GSD. I also have pictures off all my dogs and all
their pedigrees and papers from the AKC. Let me know what you need to
understand the truth.
OK, now, I understand the misconception that led to this fun and games
is due to a pedigree of Elijah that my brother e-mailed to someone who
wanted to see it. It lists not only his AKC registration # but also
his USAWA registration #. Let me explain something. USAWA registration
#s have a secret code built into them so that USAWA knows WHAT the
animal IS. Is it a Wolf? a DOG, or a cross? I will not reveal what the
codes are for the Wolf and wolfcrosses (due to legalities) but the dog
codes are as follows. The first digits of the registration # that
start with the letter P are DOGS, the letter stands for "PURE" and the
second digit determines the dog breed, in Rambo's case the "G" stands
for German Shepherd Dog. Were they malamutes or Huskies, they would
carry "PM" or "PH" numbers. "PG" stands for Pure German Shepherd, not
Parental Guidance.
Now, follow me please. Rambo WAS used as stud to a few WOLFDOG
bitches.
OH NO!...... not to worry, he was also the sire of a few DOG litters
too. Pretty cool eh? Look at Elijah and Chani and tell me he wasn't a
great stud dog. Not to mention NOBODY was allowed to drown around
Rambo either. He was a fully functional "BayWatch" dog. My daughter is
a "water rat" and I trained him to make sure she wouldn't drown at the
lake which we frequented when Heather was a little tyke. He was so
good at it, that he was a pain in the butt about it...literally.
Should anyone in our family swim past his "invisible line" from shore
he would come and GET YOU back to shore. If you were cooperative, he
offered his tail as a handle to hold all the way in to shore but if
you weren't, his favorite handle on you was your shorts.... and he
would pull you all the way back. No kidding. No self respecting
Wolfdog would ever be caught working at that job, let me tell you. Ok,
and for all you out there that are stuck in the dark ages let me stop
you right there. One breeding has ZERO effect on another breeding. For
example. Let's say you are Italian and your first marriage was to a
Ukrainian. Your children from that union are half Ukrainian and half
Italian, right? Ok, good, now let's say your next marriage is to a
Martian, ok? So your kids from that union are half Italian and half
Martian, right? They have zero Ukrainian in them right? OK, just in
case someone wasn't sure about that. One more thing.. and I hope it's
the last one or I may have to make this post into a hardcover version.
:-) Rambo, Starr, Jett, all my DOGS have USAWA registration numbers
as do many other folks' regular dogs. USAWA is an international breed
club, like the ones you have for the Shilohs and we require ALL dogs
used for breeding or even merely to compete in our National shows,
even if just for the Olympics, Agility or Fun classes they MUST be
registered to compete. Thus the USAWA #s, but remember, the PG is for
PURE GERMAN SHEPHERD which must be proven to USAWA satisfaction to get
those #s. Take a look at the pictures, if Tina doesn't have any, I do
and will gladly send some to anyone who has any doubts. Then look at
the pedigrees and you will see.
Now please...
all of you... get back to business, ok? You all are part of the Shiloh
Shepherd, the BEST all around DOG... anywhere. How many times have you
been able to take your dogs in public where someone didn't stop you to
ask questions and admire the fine animal you are privileged to have in
your care? ever?
With love for all the fuzzos,
Jim Hopkin
Heatherly Farm, USA
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Old 16-10-2002, 02:40   #58
Per Olav
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Default Norwegian situation - apply for help

Hi to you all.

The chairman of the Board of the Norwegian Kennel Club has with sorrow
officially stated that the proposal of a new dog law of Norway includes the
banning of the Saarloos Wolfhound and the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. The
proposal is to be sent from the Ministry of Justice this week. According to
FCI regulations all generations included the F5 generation and those
following are considered dogs, however this will not prevent the Ministry
from having these breeds classified as hybrids.

A personal call to the lawyer preparing this proposal showed his lack of
knowledge regarding common genetic rules, considering even the last
generations of dogs as genetic F5ers.
Now I apply to all of you good helpers everywhere to assist in preventing
this unjustice against our breeds.

I apply to you all everywhere to mail the Minister of Justice, at The
Norwegian Ministry of Justice, informing of our breed, any statistics which
may help related to the theme of "dangerous dogs" and anything which may
seem appropriate related to genetics regarding the difference of our dogs
and wolf-dog hybrids etc.

The mail address to the Ministry is mailto[email protected] . The
subject line should refer to Stop the ban of wolfhounds/wolfdogs in Norway,
and the mail should be addressed to the Minister of Justice, the Norwegian
Ministry of Justice.

Thank you all in advance.

---
Per Olav
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Old 16-10-2002, 03:07   #59
Tina
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Default Norwegian situation - apply for help

Quote:
According to
FCI regulations all generations included the F5 generation and those
following are considered dogs, however this will not prevent the Ministry
from having these breeds classified as hybrids.
They have done the same thing in the USA, here if you even mention the word
'wolf" you could be in big trouble! One web article (to show you how stupid
some people can be) is worth reading. http://inetdesign.com/coalition/tucker.html (Wolf Dog Coalition - Tucker's Story) be sure to look at his picture!
If he has any wolf blood in him, then your dogs certainly don't, yet they cut
his head off ;(

I hope somebody in Europe has more sense then the people in this country! I
will be anxious to hear how you manage to stop the ban.
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Old 16-10-2002, 15:31   #60
stefano
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Default Stop the ban of wolfhounds/wolfdogs in Norway.

Hi to everybody.

I have translated this text of Arnaldo, I pray you to correct my eventual errors before sending it to the Minister ...

Thanks.

Stefano.

- - -

Dear Minister di Justice,
it's with displeasure that I heared of the proposal of a new dog law that would prohibit the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and the Saarloos Wolfdog. They are DOGS! not WOLFS! not HYBRID! Many Scandinavian dogs possess a DNA almost identical to the wolf nevertheless they are considered dogs and not wolfs. The Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is used from the Civil Protection in Italy. It's optimal for the search on avalanches and the nautical rescue! The Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and the Saarloos can be employed to you in social useful activities, would be demonstration of ignorance to announce publicly to ban these breeds that can help the man! I'm sure that a more careful study at international level could demonstrate that it would be a serious error to eliminate these breeds. What would you think Mr. Minister if in Italy or elsewhere it came prohibited, for example, the Norsk Elghund? We pray you therefore to speed up a review of the proposal of law that it would want to ban publicly the Czechoslovakian and the di Saarloos Wolfdogs from Norway.

Arnaldo Balatroni
Brescia
Italy
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