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Old 06-09-2002, 10:08   #21
Tonje
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breeds

As Per Olav's conversation with the SW-breeder shows, it all comes back to
sheep and farmers. Farmers have a significant "say so" in any matter
pertaining to our wild carnivores. The public in general, especially in the
urban areas, are "wobbly" in their attitude to wolf as a species in norwegian
wildlife. Farmers have tried appealing to the urban public, by saying how
terribly their sheep suffer when attacked by wolves/hybrids/dogs and how awful
they feel about that. (However the same farmers let 110 000 sheep die from
other causes in the summer. The sheep die from diseases, fall injuries, eating
poisonous plants, maggots etc.) Concerning the sheep mauled last week, the
local farmers probably view that as a godsend if they want to get rid of the
SWs in the region..

Defending the CSV and the SW in Norway has little to do with any potential
hazard to human beings, one is actually fighting wolf phobia and farmers'
grazing rights for sheep. I think it would be best to try and get the
authorities to understand that there are major differences between wolfdogs
and wolves - to emphasize the differences instead of letting the authorities
focus on the visible similarities. Otherwise one would easily get caught up in
agricultural politics which really is a hornets nest. I don't believe any dog
organisation would stand a chance in that context. If the authorities could
understand that wolf politics is irrelevant to CSVs and SWs, then matters
could be resolved on a more correct basis. How to get them to take in the
"minor" detail that wolfdogs are not wolves but actual dogs, is something
else. Here it would have been appropriate for the Norwegian Kennel Club to
inform the authorities, but the Norwegian Kennel Club is apparently reluctant
to do anything at all.

As for changing the name from wolfdog to something else, I am not sure that
would serve any greater purpose. As an example, there is no antipathy so ever
against the irish wolfhound, though it is called "irish wolfdog" in norwegian
(there is no word for "hound" in norwegian).

Well, for now one can only wait for any development, starting with the meeting
on Monday.
Regards Tonje

P.S. Please correct me if I am wrong Per Olav!

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Old 06-09-2002, 10:42   #22
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breeds in

hi all,
what is now succeeding in Norway, is not too far from
italian situation so as we wrote some weeks ago (see
the mails from Ezio and Stefano). It seems that
somebody think: "save the wolf and eliminate the
wolfdog, who is nor a wolf neither a dog"....
This is a nonsense, obviousely, but when TV support
it, i worry...

I think the name may be a problem: in Italy many
people say "cane-lupo" (italian translation for
wolfdog) to indicate German shepherd dog (whose
correct italian name is "pastore tedesco").
"Canelupo", moreover, is an old, popular name for many
dogs who seems GSD or wolf.
So, when i say i have Csv, in italian "Canelupo
cecoslovacco", many people that don't know this breed,
ask me: "how is? like a wolf?" but they don't indicate
really a wolf, they indicate a german shepherd dog!
So i have to answer "it seems a wolf, a WILD wolf".

Italian Kennel club doesn't use the name "cane lupo
cecoslovacco" but the name "cane DA lupo cecoslovacco"
(idem for saarloos).
"cane da lupo" in very different from "cane lupo".
"cane lupo" is wolfdog, "cane da lupo" is a dog to
hunt the wolf! (a wolfhound...)
So the name is not a sillines...
In my opinion, perhaps, it would be better if
czechoslovakian friends think to another name for the
breed... "czechoslovakian shepherd"? why not... :-)
but it's only my opinion... :-)))
Hi all

Arnaldo
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Old 06-09-2002, 11:09   #23
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Default FW: Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breed

(Sorry for replying direct, Ann :-))

Quote:
Before when I asked why the Norwegian Kennel Club is apparently reluctantto do anything at all or is not on your side I really didn't get an answer.
Does anybody know??
Ann D.
I will pass your question to the head ethologist of the Norwegian Alpha-group,
Mr. Runar Naess. Mr. Naess has worked with these problems for a long time.

Per Olav
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Old 06-09-2002, 13:11   #24
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breeds

As far as I can see this is - as you both say - part of the current "wofwar" in Norway, and one way to harm the wolves is to harm the people who fight for wolves. These people involved here has been targeted by wolfhaters (mostly hunters and sheepfarmers) frequently because of their open fight for the wolves in Scandinavia, and this might be one of the ways to get to them. These persons who own wolfdogs don=B4t fear wolf attacs - but human attacs. They can't leave their dogs at home because of the human threats. It's so dirty. The organized hatred against wolves in Scandinavia (both in Norway and Sweden) and the people who stand up for them is overwhelming. We are all subject to investigations and must always be very careful. And, if you own a wolfdog of any kind here, it's always a "mixed breed". In that case, it's as "harmless" as any other dog would be.

Sanna
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Old 06-09-2002, 13:24   #25
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breeds

(Did it again - sorry)

Quote:
Before when I asked why the Norwegian Kennel Club is apparently reluctant
to do anything at all or is not on your side I really didn't get an answer.
Does anybody know??
Ann D.
Hi Ann.

I don't understand your hostile attitude.

It is a fact that wolf matters have been of major interest in the Norwegian
media for some years as described in the postings from Tonje.
Due to this, the owners of SWs (and now CSV) have kept a very low profile with
respect to their dogs, except that one of education. The Norwegian Kennel Club
did a very good job when the first SW was introduced to Norway by arranging
all matters of formality with respect to the authorities and the breeder.

Nevertheless, the Kennel Club has been rather reluctant in defending "rare"
breeds. The issue of wolf dogs as "dangerous breeds" has never been on the
agenda until last week when (according to my information)some farmers
disliking the defending of the wolves suddenly appointed the SW and CSV as a
target for their hostility. Mainly because of one of their main opponents was
a SW breeder living in the middle of their area.

I'm not sure of what is lying behind your statment quote Yes, one should find
out why because [--]'you'(fanciers) are not doing a very good job if even the
Norwegian Kennel Club does not understand or care or want to help. unquote

The majority of the SW (10-12) and CSV(2) owners have no problem of showing
their dogs in public. The majority of the viewers are very interrested and
found of our animals when meeting them. Spreading information with respect to
the breeds have been one of our major aims. I should like to have your opinion
of what else could be done in an area where hostility to wolves are quite
overwhelming among a large part of the population, and the tension between
those accepting the wolf as a part of our enviroment and those who don't are
very strong.

Regards

Per Olav
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Old 06-09-2002, 14:16   #26
Per Olav
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Default FW: Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breed

My "away-from-home" html-based mail reader obviously doesn't seem to like me
:-)

Quote:
I do not mean to be hostile. I have watched the 'wolfdog world' for years
in the US and now I see that the very same problems are occurring outside
of the US even though you guys have real breeds! This is very bad.
Thanks :-)
And yes, I have viewed some US wolfdog pages on the net for some years, and
as you say, the very same problems are now showing here. Unfortunately.

Quote:
When ever I point out the obvious solution to me (GET RID OF THE WORD WOLF
IN ALL DOG BREEDS NOW AND IN THE FUTURE) I am usually met by hostility.
By principle I do agree. On the other hand: why disguise a breed by renaming
it to hide its origin? But in principle I do agree.

Quote:
[About education and ignorance]
In my humble opinon: The level of education is of no importance when you mind
is made up to dislike something, wether it is your neighbor, your boss or i.e.
a wolf :-)

Quote:
It is very obvious also to me that if people are hostile to wolves they are
also going to be hostile to any breed that is called a 'wolf something',
yet so many people seem surprised and self-righteous about their superior
understanding of relationship of wolves to wolfdogs to hybrids to breeds.
It does not matter what is TRUE, only hysteria sells news and the word wolf
will ALWAYS bring hysteria. It has happened at many places on earth
and many times in history.
Again: I truly do agree - but - will renaming the wolf stop people from
frightening an animal named "flow" if it appears as an excact copy of a wolf?

Quote:
That is my opinion and where I am coming from. Feel free to ask any
more questions you want.
I'll sure do that. Thank you :-).

Regards

Per Olav
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Old 06-09-2002, 15:25   #27
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning, and the Norwegian Kennel Club

That the Norwegian Kennel Club is reluctant to get involved in the SW/CSV
issue, has nothing to do with education in my opinion. Rare breeds (and mixed
breeds) are not really considered by the Norwegian Kennel Club. I don't think
they would make any stand, unless there was a threat of banning retrievers,
norwegian elkhounds, setters, pointers - or dog shows! Maybe they would rise
to the occasion if banning of/restrictions on breeds like rottweilers, GSDs,
Riesenschnauzers etc. became a reality, but I am honestly not sure. (There is
a lot of talk about banning and restricting dangerous breeds here in
connection with a new "dog law". So far it seems like Norway will go for
restrictions of the type implemented in Germany. Whatever the Norwegian Kennel
Club is doing about that, is not quite obvious.)

Their reluctancy in the case of SWs and CSVs is probably also fueled by the
assosiation to wolves, a debate they certainly don't want to get mixed up in.
There is no Kennel club assosiated breed club for CSVs and SWs (as far as I
know). Even if there was such a club, it is doubtful that that would have any
influence on the Norwegian Kennel Club. We who only are "wolfdog fanciers",
don't have any say either. After all, we don't own a wolfdog so we don't
really know what we are talking about. Therefore Per Olav and other Norwegian
wolfdog-owners stand quite alone here. In addition, as Sanna points out,
having a wolfdog puts you in the category "wolf lover" which makes any support
even less probable.

It would probably be helpful if the Norwegian Kennel Club had become active
towards the authorities, so that one could move the focus away from wolves to
dogs. Even having to discuss whether a dog breed should be considered
dangerous or not, is preferable to having to discuss on wolf related basis.
However, I don't think there is much chance of that happening, unless,
perhaps, if national Kennel Clubs from other countries could pressure the
Norwegian Kennel Club a bit..

Regards
Tonje

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Old 06-09-2002, 18:13   #28
Per Olav
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approvedwolfdog breeds

Hi Sanna.

Although agreeing I don't think we shall dramatize the situation with
respect to the pure wolfdog breed :-)
My experiences is that 99 pct of the people I meet is very friendly and
curious about the breed, asking wether it is a hybrid or what kind of mix.
When i say" it's a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" they never heard of the breed
and start asking questions. Then I start my "missionary work" by informing
of the breed, its background and its use as a working dog.
At a certain stage we unavoidable start discussing wolves and Norwegian
wolf management, and even if we not come to terms, it very seldom
degenerate a hostile debate :-).
Luckily I live somewhat outside the most populated wolf inhabited area, and
by that seldom experience unfriendliness from the sheep farmers as my
friend the Saarlos breeder do.
But until now, I can't say I've met any kind of hostility, neither against
my dog nor me. If the media starts to produce hostile angled features
related to the breed it may happen, - but for now only friendly and curios
attitudes are shown.

Regards
Per Olav
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Old 06-09-2002, 19:28   #29
Villulv
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breeds

Hopefully it stays that way in your case. I dare say - you are lucky...I've met the norwegian hatred very closely, as well as the swedish and some of my friends involved tells me how they are treated.

Your story sounds like a fairy tale to me. The way it should be, and hopefylly will be one day.

Sanna
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Old 06-09-2002, 19:44   #30
Per Olav
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breeds

Quote:
Hopefully it stays that way in your case. I dare say - you are
lucky...I've met the norwegian hatred very closely, as well as the swedish
and some of my friends involved tells me how they are treated.
No comments on that part.

Quote:
Your story sounds like a fairy tale to me. The way it should be, and
hopefylly will be one day.
Oh well :-) Maybe it's just 'cause I'm old, close to senile - and not so
easily tempered ;.)

P.O.

---
Per Olav
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Old 06-09-2002, 19:56   #31
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approved wolfdog breeds

As I said - close to senile :0

Please read: Oh well :-) Maybe it's just 'cause I'm old, close to senile -
and not so easily excited ;.)

Per Olav
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Old 07-09-2002, 01:54   #32
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Default Norwegian proposal of banning FCI approvedwolfdog breeds in

Hi Chris.

Quote:
ertainly, calling them 'Czechoslovakian shepherds' would make it easier to
have CsV in Britain, where 'wolfdogs' are listed as 'dangerous wild animals'
along with lions, wolves and ostriches, and subject to laws requiring permits
and special enclosures ... but a shepherd dog would be subject to the laws
pertaining to dogs instead.
Again, though, that is my opinion *smile*
Chris

Well, in a way I do understand your opinion.
From my point of view however, it's like naming an elephant a rhino.
The animal still looks like an elephant and behaves like an elephant :-)
Some time ago Italian Andrea wrote someting like this on this mailling list:
- When I bought my CSV I assumed to get a dog. Instead I brought into my
house an animal looking like a wolf with the behaviour of a wolf.
Nobody, not even the breeder told me that a CSV was more like a wolf than a
dog. -
In my opinion this lead to the following question:
Will it be wise to change the name of a breed whose apperance obviously is
inherited from the wolf, and by its behaviour clearly is showing the
heritage of his ancestors?
Would such a change of name lead to misunderstanding and by that give
potentially buyers a false impression of what kind of breed he or she is
buying?
The buyer of a Czeschlovakian Wolfdog is aware of what kind of animal
he/she is buying because the name of the breed says so.
A Czechoslovakian Sheperd Dog will be someting different. I would not
expect to treat a breed named Sheperd in another way than I do treat other
dogs. This you have to with a CSV.

Regards
Per Olav
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Old 21-09-2002, 01:43   #33
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Default Proposed banning of CSV and SW in Norway

Hi everyone.
A couple of days ago the Norwegian Television showed a most unfriendly
commentary regarding the CSV and SW.
As I previously wrote, the Norwegian Ministry of Justice is making a list
of proposed banned breeds. The main subject is banning "fighting dogs" or
breeds that may be compared to these, like American Staffordshire Terriers,
Bull Terriers etc. Secondly the Ministry is considering banning breeds
that have proven overrepresented in bite statistics or breeds that might
cause fear to the public by their extraordinary hunting instincts. The
keeping of wolf hybrids is already forbidden, allthough a number of such is
supposed to be kept secretly. Now the time has come to look to the few SW
and the single CSV in Norway.
The Directorate of Nature Management is investigating how close is the
relation between the wolf and the two FCI approved breeds, that is - if
they are a kind of "wolves in disguise" irrespective their FCI approval.
Therefore the owners of SW and CSV are dependent of all kind of statistics
to show the Ministry of Justice with respect to attacks made by CSVs and
SWs upon human, compared to other breeds.
We also should like to have more information on the subject of how close
the relationship between the wolf and our two breeds is. Anyone who can
help be referring to links of offical information or by mailing any kind of
information which may be helpful?

---
Per Olav
http://www.norwolf.no




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Old 21-09-2002, 09:48   #34
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Default Proposed banning of CSV and SW in Norway

Hello Per,

maybe you can send this asking to the dutch,german en belgian SWH clubs
so they can send information to the Norwegian Ministry.
I place this artikel of you in my club on the internet,if its right?
I know there is a owner of a SWH in the netherlands that goes imigraite
to sweden.

This are the adresses of the SWH clubs.
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

Groeten Christa
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Old 22-09-2002, 12:21   #35
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Default Proposed banning of CSV and SW in Norway

Interesting Christa, maybe you can help me get in contact with this SWH owner?

Sanna
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Old 09-10-2002, 19:57   #36
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Default To my czech friends

Hi to you all.

One of the major Norwegian oponents of CSV is a Norwegian named Ben Werner.
Mr. Werner claims to have visited some military dog stations in the Czech
Rep in 2000 and 2001 as a member of a group studying rescue and ruin
dogs.Being there he also trained the CSV.
He says he visited Malaky(?) and met among others Monika S (?)
Anyone remembering such a visit and Mr. Werner.

---
Per Olav
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Old 09-10-2002, 20:28   #37
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Default To my czech friends

Hi Per Olav,

Quote:
Mr. Werner claims to have visited some military dog stations in the
Czech Rep in 2000 and 2001 as a member of a group studying rescue and
ruin dogs.Being there he also trained the CSV.
Mr. Werner is maybe little bit disoriented. According my informations
from veterinary base of Czech army, last CsW were by army 10 years ago
and this dogs were just over 10 years old and living in "pension for
seniors" only. Is not true, that in years 2000-2001 were trained some
CsW by Czech Army (you can check it direct by ministery of defence -
http://www.army.cz).

Quote:
He says he visited Malaky(?)
Right name is Malacky and its not in Czech, but Slovakia. If there still
CsW, I cant say, but am very pesimistic. You can ask by slovakian Club
(e.g. by Sona Bognarova - [email protected]).

Quote:
and met among others Monika S (?)
I know only one person with this initials - Monika Soukupova, which is a
member oc comitee of Czech Club. You can asking by her directly as well.


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Old 10-10-2002, 00:15   #38
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Default To my czech friends

Quote:
One of the major Norwegian oponents of CSV is a Norwegian named Ben
Werner. Mr. Werner claims to have visited some military dog stations in the Czech Rep in 2000 and 2001 as a member of a group studying rescue and ruin dogs.Being there he also trained the CSV. He says he visited Malaky(?) and met among others Monika S (?) Anyone remembering such a visit and Mr. Werner.
Per Olav
I got something interesting for you. )
First, it's impossible that he saw CSVs in military dog stations. For
expample we were in Grabstein and they have none. And they trained none
since a very, very long time )) And I'm 100% sure there are also no
wolfdogs working in SAR in Czech Republic (so far... ) ).

He visited Malacky? Yes, we also do this during our trip to Nitra. It's a
very nice town )))

And about Monika S(oukupova):
"I don´t know and I don´t remember man with name Ben Werner.
In year 2 000 I am met only with Ammon Ben Izhak from Israel
Search and Rescue Dogs Association. But this Ben living with
all family in Tel Aviv.
I don´t know any Norwegians, personaly.
I having contact with someones only by e-mails.
Best regards, Monika."


Greetings,
Margo
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Old 11-10-2002, 10:41   #39
Per Olav
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Default Norwegian situation.

Hei all.

Mr. Ben Werner from Norway has informed me that he now is a member of this
list.

Mr. Werner is one of the main advocates of a Norwegian ban of Cz. wolfdogs.
In a letter to Norwegian authorities he claims himself having a knowlege of Cz
wolfdogs and as a reseprentative of the Norwegian Society of Rescue Dogs he
has been visiting the Cz Rep and studied and trained the breed.

In his opinion, Mr. Werner tells, the CsW is a most dangerous breed and should
not be allowed kept and trained by other but highly skilled personell. Mr
Werner also advise against the dogs beeing used as a rescue dog or in field
trials. In his writing Mr Werner consistently is refering to the breed as a
hybrid, well aware of the fact that hybrids are banned in Norway. Mr Werner
claims the dog to be banned from Norway by the reason of beeing most
dangerous to humans.

In addition Mr. Werner insinuate the main purpose of keeping this two breed is
having the oportunity of establishing a new tribe of wolf/wolfdog hybrids in
Norway. Mr Werner says this possibly already have been done by the keepers of
CsW and SW in Norway. For this reason the CsW and SW also should be banned.

I request any information regarding the proposed ban of SW/CsW in Norway not
should be mailed on this list but sent to my e-mail address only.

Obviously we have an active mole in our basement.

Regards Per Olav

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Old 11-10-2002, 11:28   #40
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Default Norwegian situation.

hei I am Ben Werner!
Im am a private persen and are not i repeat not reseprentesentin of the
Norwegian Society of Rescue Dogs! yes i am a member but not rerresenting them.
It is more wrong in what Per Olaw wrote, but I can not reply at this time.
regards
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