de Louba Tar kennel

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

hi, now that the price war seems to be drying up !! you may be interested to know that after 5yrs & 7 mths work & effort by my wife mandy, myself & corrie keizer after tons of paperwork, hundreds of phone calls, endless red tape, & pleading with kennel club, lynx legends puppies are all now on the working & obedience register with the kennel club of great britian, the first step to get the breed reconised in uk, we need 10 czechs in uk to get on import register, then we will put the breed up to become fully reconised in uk, we have dogs that will be imported this year to make up the numbers, it has been long hard dtruggle but worth every day, corrie has give us support from day one, without her help there would be no czechs in uk, also many thanks to robb in hollan who bred lynx, so i think it is fair to say we have made a big effort for the breed, corrie & i promoted the first czech ever at crufts, we produced the first litter in uk, the strang thing is for all our effort & work, it did not even get a mention on wolfdog.org from all the czech owners & breeders on wolfdog.org we have only recieved two private email to congratulate us on our effort, a few words of support would have been nice now & then but not to worry, hopefully next year we will be the complete attension at discover dogs at crufts standing proude with our czechoslovakian wolfdogs. best regards paul,mandy & corrie.............


This is an earlier post from you Paul in another topic on this forum......
So my remark about a personal vendetta were not far from the truth!

And I still found it very strange that you be at the kennels of Corrie for 18 months and not saying anything to here then....If you were so concerned with the dogs I think you could have done something about it during your stay over there. If you told Corrie that you find the dogs skinny, sick or what ever she sure was reasonable enough to listen to you.

hi, i see you are very observent person, yet still you ignor my posts telling why we stayed 18mths, at this time it was a pleasure to work at de louba tar with only 49 dogs, the dogs more than doubled within a 6 mth period, then it went bad, just like my post back then as you can see members havent changed still not much support from wolfdog.org,, if you call keeping dogs in these conditions, fraudulent registrations and pedigrees , farming dogs for money , exposing one of the biggist puppy mill syndicates in europe involving lots of breeders a personal vendetta then that is your choice, you seem to be very persistant person so now , yes i will give one piece of information in private email, then you will see how all i state is very true not only with conditions paul

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

hi, now that the price war seems to be drying up !! you may be interested to know that after 5yrs & 7 mths work & effort by my wife mandy, myself & corrie keizer after tons of paperwork, hundreds of phone calls, endless red tape, & pleading with kennel club, lynx legends puppies are all now on the working & obedience register with the kennel club of great britian, the first step to get the breed reconised in uk, we need 10 czechs in uk to get on import register, then we will put the breed up to become fully reconised in uk, we have dogs that will be imported this year to make up the numbers, it has been long hard dtruggle but worth every day, corrie has give us support from day one, without her help there would be no czechs in uk, also many thanks to robb in hollan who bred lynx, so i think it is fair to say we have made a big effort for the breed, corrie & i promoted the first czech ever at crufts, we produced the first litter in uk, the strang thing is for all our effort & work, it did not even get a mention on wolfdog.org from all the czech owners & breeders on wolfdog.org we have only recieved two private email to congratulate us on our effort, a few words of support would have been nice now & then but not to worry, hopefully next year we will be the complete attension at discover dogs at crufts standing proude with our czechoslovakian wolfdogs. best regards paul,mandy & corrie.............


This is an earlier post from you Paul in another topic on this forum......
So my remark about a personal vendetta were not far from the truth!

And I still found it very strange that you be at the kennels of Corrie for 18 months and not saying anything to here then....If you were so concerned with the dogs I think you could have done something about it during your stay over there. If you told Corrie that you find the dogs skinny, sick or what ever she sure was reasonable enough to listen to you.

hi, i see you are very observent person, yet still you ignor my posts telling why we stayed 18mths, at this time it was a pleasure to work at de louba tar with only 49 dogs, the dogs more than doubled within a 6 mth period, then it went bad, just like my post back then as you can see members havent changed still not much support from wolfdog.org,, if you call keeping dogs in these conditions, fraudulent registrations and pedigrees , farming dogs for money , exposing one of the biggist puppy mill syndicates in europe involving lots of breeders a personal vendetta then that is your choice, you seem to be very persistant person so now , yes i will give one piece of information in private email, then you will see how all i state is very true not only with conditions paul

[Joyce]

So you give a piece of information in private mail, well I am curious.
And once again I am not for breeders who do not threat their dogs well.
And yes animals should be threated well, but if I was witness to what you said you were, I have done everything in my power to stop it directly and not several years later. And you can state time after time that you need evidence and make sure that the authorities won't kill the dogs, but if a animal is in need as you said it needs help directly.

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by pacino

so you say dogs come back with stong temper, spirit or caracter, This is because no one had time to socialise the pups as there was to much work with the 100 plus other dogs

What I was saying is that if people who took a dog of this breed, not normally think they have such a strong breed. So they can not cope with the breed themselves. They made the wrong choice by taking such a dog and were more better to have another dog like a golden retriever or something. If you choose for a czech you need to know enough of the dog to cope with it. People do not often know that. By that time the dogs always can go back to her. So this has nothing to do with socialise the pups. They most socialise when they are with their new owner, if they can cope with the dog no problems at all, as I can see with the two dogs my friend has from this breeder.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

So this has nothing to do with socialise the pups. They most socialise when they are with their new owner, if they can cope with the dog no problems at all, as I can see with the two dogs my friend has from this breeder.

No, the socialising MUST start at the breeder already. The most important socialising period window is opened only from about 5 to 12 weeks of age of the puppy. That´s too short time to ignore the pups psychical needs and just leave it to the new owner, especially if he/she is inexperienced.

Not to mention, that nobody should sell CSW to owner, who cannot cope. Sure, mistakes happen and we cannot always guess, what will happen in future, but mass producers and puppy mills are known to sell to anyone to make profit, ignoring the welfare of the pups. Saying that the pup can always go back, if things don´t work, is rather horrible. Sure, it is nice if it can, but it should be only in critical situations, not as a rule. Such master changes are terrible for such inteligent dog as CSW.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

What I was saying is that if people who took a dog of this breed, not normally think they have such a strong breed. So they can not cope with the breed themselves. They made the wrong choice by taking such a dog and were more better to have another dog like a golden retriever or something. If you choose for a czech you need to know enough of the dog to cope with it. People do not often know that. By that time the dogs always can go back to her. So this has nothing to do with socialise the pups. They most socialise when they are with their new owner, if they can cope with the dog no problems at all, as I can see with the two dogs my friend has from this breeder.

why do you keep making me embrasses you on line, if you think socialisation starts with new owner then it must be done different where you live,, it starts much sooner i can assure you, paul

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

No, the socialising MUST start at the breeder already. The most important socialising period window is opened only from about 5 to 12 weeks of age of the puppy. That´s too short time to ignore the pups psychical needs and just leave it to the new owner, especially if he/she is inexperienced.

Not to mention, that nobody should sell CSW to owner, who cannot cope. Sure, mistakes happen and we cannot always guess, what will happen in future, but mass producers and puppy mills are known to sell to anyone to make profit, ignoring the welfare of the pups. Saying that the pup can always go back, if things don´t work, is rather horrible. Sure, it is nice if it can, but it should be only in critical situations, not as a rule. Such master changes are terrible for such inteligent dog as CSW.

You must be very educated or certain if you can see somebody who cannot cope a CWS and then do not sell a CWS to this person. Normally a pup will give not the main problem, but usually the dogs that are have their puber period.
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

[Wolfsirius]

You must be very educated or certain if you can see somebody who cannot cope a CWS and then do not sell a CWS to this person.

-Once again, i must say, that still too many breeders sell pups to totally wrong persons. There is many things from where you can see, or feel, if person is not the right one for CsV. AND: how many breeders tell the truth from the breed? I think, not so many. CsV is not the easiest breed to handle, and every breeders responsibility is to tell about that. CORRECT. Even, if people after truth decide not to take pup,(not to take the breed) is better for pup, breeder and people to make decision BEFORE pup will move to new home, than AFTER 1 year. Breeders sell pups in age of 7 weeks without negative experiences (mainly) but after 1 year, as all had went wrong, breeders get back a REAL PROBLEMATIC DOG, and- worst ones- sell these dogs again, and again without telling real problems. Of course, not all breeders are like this, but too many.

-If dog comes back to me, i will go to see mirror. IT WAS MY FAULT APPRAISAL, i thought, new owner would be good enough- it wasn't. Next time i should be more careful, cause, as Mirka said, these dogs are not for homechanging, if any dog is.

And i must say, in Finland is more "wrong owners" for this breed, because of our dog culture, than in middle of Europe.
(comparing amount of CsV;s we have momentally in Finland, in problems, we already have here, unfortunatelly)

-Suski

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Joyce

You must be very educated or certain if you can see somebody who cannot cope a CWS and then do not sell a CWS to this person. Normally a pup will give not the main problem, but usually the dogs that are have their puber period.

Please, read my post very carefully, before replying. I said:

Not to mention, that nobody should sell CSW to owner, who cannot cope. Sure, mistakes happen and we cannot always guess, what will happen in future, but mass producers and puppy mills are known to sell to anyone to make profit, ignoring the welfare of the pups.

I disagree that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy than with teenage dog. I´ve heard from other breeders about puppies given back at age of 2-3 months, because the new owner found them too wild, too aggressive , too temperament... The pups were normal, but the new owners were not able to cope, perhaps with a labrador, maybe. Yes, second stage is the teenage dog, but once the owner made it up to here through all the destroyed furniture, eaten shoes, socks and kitchen utensils, there´s chance he´ll stand by his dog.

Originally Posted by Joyce

I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

Are you kidding? So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs? Sorry, but I don´t believe it, even if there was actually less than 119 skinny dogs. Even owning 49 dogs for me and breeding on them is not for me breeding for love, care, health and improvement of the breed, but for money. In this I agree totally with what Ina and Annomon said here.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Please, read my post very carefully, before replying. I said:


I disagree that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy than with teenage dog. I´ve heard from other breeders about puppies given back at age of 2-3 months, because the new owner found them too wild, too aggressive , too temperament... The pups were normal, but the new owners were not able to cope, perhaps with a labrador, maybe. Yes, second stage is the teenage dog, but once the owner made it up to here through all the destroyed furniture, eaten shoes, socks and kitchen utensils, there´s chance he´ll stand by his dog.



Are you kidding? So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs? Sorry, but I don´t believe it, even if there was actually less than 119 skinny dogs. Even owning 49 dogs for me and breeding on them is not for me breeding for love, care, health and improvement of the breed, but for money. In this I agree totally with what Ina and Annomon said here.

hi i have photos of every dog in every kennel or pen all taken on same day, also with me were my friends from Holland who also took photos of all dogs, with all dogs and counting two litters of puppies there was total of 119 dogs, i have photos as do my friends in Holland, if you look i will put photo on my wed site you can see young czech and saarloos in ONE pen 7 dogs, paul

[Joyce]

Mirkawolf, please read my message also carefully, because I did not say:
- that the new owners can easily cope with a puppy
I said that a pup will not give the main problem

As I also did not say:
- So you say, that she keeps 119 dogs in kennels built for 49 for the love of the dogs?
This is wat I have said:
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

[Mirkawolf]

Joyce, I´ve read you very carefully and that´s why I said what I said. And even after your last post, I don´t mean to change a word on what I´ve said.
Sorry.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Joyce

This is wat I have said:
I think that mw. Keizer is not up to mass production to sell CWS to make a profit. Every money she get from selling a CWS is always going back in to the kennel. And if she was, than there will be not as many dogs as Paul let believe us in her kennel.

Following what you have written, she is breeding to earn money to keep an enormous amount of dogs. No matter if there are 119 of them, she definetly has a lot more than the normal amount of a hobby breeder. And dogs cost quite a lot of money if you keep them properly. If this would be true I know several stories like hers from my work in an animal-shelter, they always end up with the police getting the dogs out of incredible circumstances and an animal-shelter full of dirty and ill dogs. And you are right those people don´t have that many dogs, only about three times what they can cope with.
Out of my personal experiences does what you write make things worse and Paul´s story more reliable.

And she needs money for herself too, so there is an easy way to find out if she produces puppies for a living. Maybe somebody here who seems to know her well can tell us what job she has to make up for her own needs, her profession shouldn´t be a personal secret.

Ina

[Joyce]

No breeder is just a breeder for hobby. You always get money from selling a dog with a pedigree. It depends only what you do with the money.

[wolfin]

When 49 or 119 dogs living in kennel not in house like house animal, i thinks this is't loving animal, but producent from money.
loving animal living with hes family in house not in kennel and see people when eating or have puppies.
one american breeder and judge say "good family and good breeders and owners CANN thake hes love and care only from 5 dogs, if dogs is moore owner not have thime from each dogs. "

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Following what you have written, she is breeding to earn money to keep an enormous amount of dogs. No matter if there are 119 of them, she definetly has a lot more than the normal amount of a hobby breeder. And dogs cost quite a lot of money if you keep them properly. If this would be true I know several stories like hers from my work in an animal-shelter, they always end up with the police getting the dogs out of incredible circumstances and an animal-shelter full of dirty and ill dogs. And you are right those people don´t have that many dogs, only about three times what they can cope with.
Out of my personal experiences does what you write make things worse and Paul´s story more reliable.

And she needs money for herself too, so there is an easy way to find out if she produces puppies for a living. Maybe somebody here who seems to know her well can tell us what job she has to make up for her own needs, her profession shouldn´t be a personal secret.

Ina

hi Mrs Keizer does not work, and did not work all time i was there, i know she does not work for many years from talking to friends of hers but as you know i only give facts, all the time i was there only money from Holland and pups for income, paul

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by wolfin

When 49 or 119 dogs living in kennel not in house like house animal, i thinks this is't loving animal, but producent from money.
loving animal living with hes family in house not in kennel and see people when eating or have puppies.
one american breeder and judge say "good family and good breeders and owners CANN thake hes love and care only from 5 dogs, if dogs is moore owner not have thime from each dogs. "

Having 49 or 119 dogs says nothing about if you love these dogs ore not, nor does living in kennels instead or your home says nothing about if you love your dogs or not. And off course you can give more time to the dogs if you have only 5.
But it still does not say anything over the love for your dogs. Even if you are a breeder for money (which in my opinion is every breeder, otherwise you only have dogs for your hobby and does not sell any pup which is born in your litter) you still love every dog I'm sure!

[Wolfsirius]

... And there is a huge different, if you are working outside home for 8 hours, or if you are not. If not, you could have from 8 to 10 hours more time to your dogs, so i think, amount of dogs is not possible count on "american style", always have to look things on both sides.

-Suski

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Joyce

No breeder is just a breeder for hobby. You always get money from selling a dog with a pedigree. It depends only what you do with the money.

If you have few dogs and go to Clubshows and Bonitations in other countries, if you work them, give them good food, give them their vaccinations and wormtreatments and vetcare and especially if you look for your mating partners internationally and have to drive some thousand kilometers and stay in a hotel for 1-2 weeks you will find out that 1-2 litters a year won´t earn the money you need for your dogs. Especially if you count the time till you can breed the dog or the times the bitch didn´t get a litter and so on.
If you have a lot of dogs and don´t bother to take foreign studs, never go to bonitations, to clubshows in other countries and all the stuff that helps you to find the best pairings but most puppy-buyers don´t care for, you can earn money with several litters a year. Especially because several breeders out of the country of origin and most puppy-buyers don´t realize what´s going on. You will sooner or later have ugly dogs that don´t fit the standart and depending on the genetic facts of the parents you always use they may have dysplasia quite often, but who cares.

Ina

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Especially because several breeders out of the country of origin and most puppy-buyers don´t realize what´s going on.

Ina

Sorry, of course I meant several breeders that are not out of the countries of origin.