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Old 15-12-2007, 23:44   #61
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi, I'm new here and a saarlooswolfdogowner.I have visited Corrie's kennel once and met her several times on shows etc.When I visited the kennel in France we got the grand tour, and it struck me that allthough she has that many dogs, they were welltreated and looked after!It is true that Corrie likes her dogs skinny, and so do I, but I think that some dogs on the pictures suffer from some kind of desease, and this is certainly not the look of the majority of dogs. The pictures were most certainly taken after a once a year big rainfall, because when we were there it rained also and there were absolutely no flooded kennels!I remember also to have met the person that took the pictures, I think he and his woman were working as volunteers at that time but I can be wrong....?HälsningarRickSweden
hi if you visited as you say when my wife and i worked at de louba tar and it was raining, even when it rained lightly the pens flooded or has lots of surface water as the drainage was no existant, are you sure it was de louba tar kennels? so you got the grand tour, then you wont mind telling us all, how many dogs do you recall seeing? how many litters of pups did you see? where you in the cellar? where you in the maternity unit? where you in front or side gardens? you like your dogs skinny like Mrs Keizer,,, if i thought or could prove you have dogs this thin i would report you to the authorities as well,,please forward a photo of one of you skinny dogs to us all to see ,thank you for your post best regards paul
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Old 15-12-2007, 23:53   #62
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Well y think that response from mrs C .keizer open mind but people prefer things rumor that the truth ....what is the real pb ????? PICS show in this forum ? ok dogs not best coat /look skinny ...ok y can say that my dog furyos when he fall in love can loose 2/3 /4 kg and stop to eat ...and when it s rain look very very dirty (and he live with lot comfort in 2 houses...big flat-loft in paris 300m2 front" butte chaumont park(45 hect)"the week and a big house in north country the week end ...not good argument for people who never try to visit "loubatar" or "crying wolf "kennel ...Y DO and y m so happy to meet both woman so so good in mentality and do what they have in their mind ....wolfish look in their selection race ...YES Y LOVE (and y repeat ....Y M PROUD about this ...) wolfdog who have wolfish look and not german shepherd look ...that 's all ...for me and my vision is that ...BUT Y RESPECT IF SOMEONE PREFER DO WORK/ CANICROSS ...ECT .... ECT .... no pb the world is big enought to have yur ideology ....well y never see dog sick or with any problem in their kennels .....y think allways in this forum yu try to discredited kennels(few weeks ago it was passo del lupo ...when for an other one????) THIS IS POLITIK REACTION IN THIS FORUM!!!!!! Y REPEAT BREEDER IS NOT MY JOB (y win enought money without this passion) BUT PLEASE STOP YUR BAD DISCUSSIONS ...Y THINK PEOPLE inteligent enougth when they go to visiting a kennel to see if their futur pupps are in a good one or not... y trust in edit molnar and y win a lot of competition with her dogs ...(y know somepeople say it s not important but y never do show before buy crying wolf merlin and know anybody/ juge.///ETC....)y thing that this forum "smell hypocriate feeling" ....Rona ..sorry if yu imagine my reputation can became bad after say that y trust someone ;;;but don't remember first and second war in the pass :informing is not my mentality ...Y ' M FRENCH GUY AND PREFER FEEL FREE !!!!!Y DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE ;;;;;Y LOVE MY DOGS AND DO WHAT Y LIKE WITH THEM show /BREDD / SPORT ETC ETC .....VIVA LIBERTAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!DON'T FORGET FRENCH ARE FIRST IN REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!NO WAR FOR ME AND Y BELIEVE IN REPUBLIK MODELS AND FONDMENT(Y HATE "PROPAGANDA")...IF JUSTICE AND AUTORITY DO HIS WORK ....THEY HAVE GOOD REASONS TO DO ;;;;;;;;Y HOPE THAT IT 'S MY LAST POST NOW !!!! a lot of work in this season for me ..... TAKE CARE EVERYBODY!!!!!!!FURYOS.......
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Old 16-12-2007, 00:06   #63
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hi paul...my e mail is [email protected] ...yu can have yur good reasons but please why put yur intentions here on this forum ...do your legal action if yu think yu are in yur right side but not write ..just to write ..After yur proove can be published but talk to talk is for me too mutch " teenager or child action"......adult reaction is for me do with legal authorities what yu think but not write like propaganda here ...best regards too ...furyos
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Old 16-12-2007, 00:17   #64
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I was very amazed when I was reading this topic.
A friend of mine has two dogs from this kennel and I can asure you that they were in good condition when he got them!
These two dogs have very good manners, looking great, are in good shape and are kindly to people they know.
When a breeder loves to have their dogs a bit thin is that forbidden?? Its up to the new owner to keep it that way or to change it, if dogs are to fat you have lots of trouble to get them on a diet.
In the reaction of mrs. Keizer I understood that you, Paul, left 7 dogs with her when you went to Spain! So if this person is not good to her dogs why did you left them with her in the first place? And how about your concerns to the dogs? Did you not have any concerns when you left your dogs with her? Strange ain't it, because when it its to your personal benefit, you do not mind to leave your own dogs with you.
In my personal opinion you have a personal vendetta against this breeder, so please keep it to yourself or to the person involved instead of doing some backstabbing on a public forum.
The pictures shown could be have taken at any kennel, because we never see a name sign or something only some kennels. You stated you have pictures of the kennels you build yourselve there, they were made in summer and you used them for your own promotion, so be a man and show them also to everybody here.
The breeder is much concerned with the dogs, much more than to her own concern, when people who can not cope with the dogs because of their strong temper, spirit and caracter she always takes them back instead of leaving them to theirselves! And this was also in the time you were there I'm sure!!
What I find very strange is that it took you 18 months to go away and also a long time to put all this at the forum. If you are that concerned with the dogs in my opinion I never should take that much time to expell this breeder, so that is also a bit strange ain't it??
Your excuse that you were afraid of the French autorities is also a bit week, these autorithies are still the same so the risk for the dogs still there is the same!
hi, my dogs were left with one of corries friends called Henery who lives in Reims, so that rules that one out,,, i have also explained why i stayed 18mth and also why it has taken so long to bring the photos out, its all in previuos posts, i have no personal vendetta, so you say dogs come back with stong temper, spirit or caracter, This is because no one had time to socialise the pups as there was to much work with the 100 plus other dogs ,, some of the photos are in pens i built.. i have nothing to hide, my wife and i also spent some of our own savings on material,,, all the photos were taken at de louba tar kennels they are now part of the evidence that the authorities have, you must thing i am stupid to make false photos then give them as evidense, if you think the dogs in the photos are A BIT THIN , a bit thin is an under statement now have another look before you write any more silly remaks, the dogs look like something that has been abandoned and running the streets for 3 mths living of scraps,, in uk you would be arrested for having animals this thin,, my friends who came to wittness these dogs cried when i showed them around the kennels, NO ANIMAL DESERVES TO LIVE LIKE THIS AND I CONDEM ANYONE WHO THINKS OTHERWISE, PAUL
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Old 16-12-2007, 00:31   #65
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Originally Posted by furyos View Post
hi paul...my e mail is [email protected] ...yu can have yur good reasons but please why put yur intentions here on this forum ...do your legal action if yu think yu are in yur right side but not write ..just to write ..After yur proove can be published but talk to talk is for me too mutch " teenager or child action"......adult reaction is for me do with legal authorities what yu think but not write like propaganda here ...best regards too ...furyos
I put my intension on this forum to inform other breeders of what is going on at these kennels, as Czechoslovakian wolfdogs breeders ,owners and lovers they have a rigth to know that a breeder on this site is keeping dogs in these conditions , it is very sad that you think to expose such a serious matter is childish, i give true facts not propaganda, i will prove all i say and it will be made very public, regards paul
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Old 16-12-2007, 00:46   #66
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
I really not know how it works in europe, remembering that this local is public and all who want can read and understand as they wish, haven't the danger of someone alert the zoonosis control center for put an end in that kennel? These fotos are suficiently for zoonosis control go and see if it's all truth, if they do that I don't think that they will leave these dogs alive...
hi yes i know about the French authorities and what they do but we are working with other people to make sure all dogs are safe , it has taken time but we have a choice leave things the way they are or stop it for the future dogs, it was not easy decision and i did not make it myself i consulted a lot of friends in Europe we discuss the situation and the risks but we have all seen the kennels and we all say we must stop it now, members of a breed clud have viewed the vodeos made by different people at different times a lot of the people cried after seeing the clips, other people have also came forward now to help and share other photos, thank you for your post regards paul
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Old 16-12-2007, 01:22   #67
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Paul, it almost seems like you are the owner of this site.
If somebody ask some questions back, you stated that we make silly remarks, and if somebody is more in to your corner than you say thank you for your post.
So you say that if a friend is also at the kennel of which you say time after time that dogs should not live in these circumstances than it is ok to leave your dogs there? They are still in the kennels and with somebody who you obviously does not like!
I totally agree with you and I never said that dogs should live in terrible circumstances so reed my post first well before you react.
I have read all your posts and in every post you say almost the same. I find it still very strange that it took you so long and that you ask people on the forum to send you pictures etc. just to have more evidence. So I'm thinking that your "case" is not as strong as you let believing us.
A forum is a place to let everybody learn from each other, and to speak of interesting matters. NOT FOR PERSONAL VENDETTA'S !
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Old 16-12-2007, 01:36   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furyous
PICS show in this forum ? ok dogs not best coat /look skinny ...
Are you veterinarian or student? I think not, so you're not able to valuate the health of these dogs nor by photos.
Anyone who know a little bit how shoud look like a healty dog see that these dogs are really under wheight!!! That is not only "she like skinny dogs" these dogs seems starving, photos cannot be the perfect way to judge details about dogs when we see the breed quality, thats almost because we not see the dogs move so we cannot have much idea about his angles as have some proficional photografers who are able to hiden little problems, after all photos are used for some breeders for judge theys litters quality in some ways, but this situation is completly different of that was show here and so, this excuse is not valid for save the skin of a bad breeder.

You can easy see by fotos all the rib's of the dogs, the coxal bone and the collumn what need more for say that these dogs really have problems and need quickly a good treatment?! If someone here touch these dogs will see the size of the problem, we can already see the bones by photos when have the coat hiden that ( too the summer coat), you probably will be able to study bones anatomy touching then! The dogs body condition won't seems worsers because raining or not, is possible value by the photo that Mirka do, and the dog was in show.

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Originally Posted by Furyous
adult reaction is for me do with legal authorities what yu think but not write like propaganda
So you really think that someone will do that on public without have already all right with the law? without have real proof's? or who knows, as you supose first, only for 'vengance'?
Back to the reallity, if someone do that without all right and real proof's will be condemn for calumny and defamation.
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Old 16-12-2007, 01:40   #69
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Originally Posted by furyos View Post
in this forum yu try to discredited kennels(few weeks ago it was passo del lupo ...
French guy, please speak only about things that you know : nobody discredited PdL; PdL discredited himself using and registering in book of origin a truly mix (maybe GS / timber wolf/ csw) as a csw

About the theme of thread : I saw some very ugly Kaizer-type csw after a big rainfall. But the cages are big, much bigger than the ones of many other so called breeders in Italy, Slovakia, Czech rep.

Dear mr. Pacino, you should put in the court many more italian, slovakian or Czech "breeders" and owners that keep dogs closed in a smaller kennel all day long!

Or - better- you can solve your VERY PERSONAL PROBLEM with Mrs Kaizer out of this forum.
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Old 16-12-2007, 02:09   #70
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
Are you veterinarian or student? I think not, so you're not able to valuate the health of these dogs nor by photos.
.
Strange....because that it exactly wat has happening in this topic all the time by everyone and especially Paul: valuate the health of these dogs by photos......
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Old 16-12-2007, 03:06   #71
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Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
Strange....because that it exactly wat has happening in this topic all the time by everyone and especially Paul: valuate the health of these dogs by photos......
I think that you must read complet for understand the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
Anyone who know a little bit how shoud look like a healty dog see that these dogs are really under wheight!!! That is not only "she like skinny dogs" these dogs seems starving, photos cannot be the perfect way to judge details about dogs when we see the breed quality, thats almost because we not see the dogs move so we cannot have much idea about his angles as have some proficional photografers who are able to hiden little problems, after all photos are used for some breeders for judge theys litters quality in some ways, but this situation is completly different of that was show here and so, this excuse is not valid for save the skin of a bad breeder.
I means that suposed because only lack someone arrive here saying that is completly normal CzW look like an anorexic Azawak's and that these dogs are healty and happy and that they're a little bit fat, that what we see not exist and that it was the fothos who makes they seems like that, that all that is a fothoshop work or product of our imagination.

Last edited by Nebulosa; 16-12-2007 at 03:09. Reason: addicts
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Old 16-12-2007, 11:24   #72
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Originally Posted by furyos View Post
..Rona ..sorry if yu imagine my reputation can became bad after say that y trust someone ;;;but don't remember first and second war in the pass :informing is not my mentality ...Y ' M FRENCH GUY AND PREFER FEEL FREE !!!!!Y DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE ;;;;;Y LOVE MY DOGS AND DO WHAT Y LIKE WITH THEM show /BREDD / SPORT ETC ETC .....VIVA LIBERTAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!DON'T FORGET FRENCH ARE FIRST IN REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!NO WAR FOR ME AND Y BELIEVE IN REPUBLIK MODELS AND FONDMENT(Y HATE "PROPAGANDA")...IF JUSTICE AND AUTORITY DO HIS WORK ....THEY HAVE GOOD REASONS TO DO ;;;;;;;;Y HOPE THAT IT 'S MY LAST POST NOW !!!! a lot of work in this season for me ..... TAKE CARE EVERYBODY!!!!!!!FURYOS.......
Thanks for your explanations! I understand your point now: any (French?) breeder is a free person in a free country (France?). Within this freedom every (French?) breeder may let their dogs suffer but noone should or even have the right to check their conditions or intervene in emergency. In other words: you love your dogs, but don't care about the fate of other (French?) people's dogs...

***
What a highly informative discussion this is! Real views of people and their genuine attitudes are brought out into light... So far I know one thing: I'd never buy a dog bred at Furyos kennel - I just woudn't trust him as a breeder, nor as a human.

***
I only hope that not all French breeders share such views....
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Old 16-12-2007, 12:17   #73
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@ Paul

could you inform me what action has been taken .. i am a little baffled by this remark to be honoust:

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i have posted my full name and address so Mrs Keizer can inform her legal representitive to deal with my allegations
why should she deal with you, persue you, obviously if you have taken actions she better deal with authorities and will be informed about that by authorities..

Further more.. you claim it is all about the dogs, correct?

Than why not make a post more like this : Louba tar kennels will shortly be shut down by authorities cause i , paul winder have taken steps that will result in and end to these outragous way of hurting and ill threating of dogs.. who will be able to take in a dog with severe trauma, no socialisation. Which vet would help castrate and nurse the dogs back to health..

IMHO that is caring for dogs, what you do now imho is trying to score some points, showing off pictures, so different from the pictures on your former website etc..

@ all, I have been to the kennels, like i stated before, seen everything, helped feed dogs ,helped clean the kennels and seen nothing that would result to me in this accusations. ( i have been there a day at a time, over the last couple yrs, not often, but often enough to have an opinion)
I saw the part where a sick dog was housed for a time, she didn't look well, very skinny ; when i returned at a later time i informed about the dog and was told about what measures had been taken etc.. i had no reason to distrust, like i still don't have!

Would I want to live that way, now that is another story, would i, in a situation where my kennels are already full take in a dog cause people don't want to keep it any more, i doubt.
I really like the type of SWH Corrie breeds, i own one, so may be "kennel blind" i care less for some of the TWd she breeds, that is opinion, but the fact that she doesn't do bonitation does not make her ill threat the dogs, that you don't like the way the dogs look doesn't mean she ill treaths them or has crossed with akita, wolf, SWD , GSD CSD or any other breed like often rumoured. (why no one has the decency to instead of rumouring taking the official way and order Raad van Beheer DNA testing is also an wonder to me)

My favorit anekdote is from a show; i was showing Macho, MY SWD , won BOB and later on was adressed by a TWD breeder who wanted tot show an interested bystander the differences between SWD and TWD. The breeder started explaining, differentiating between my boy and the other male TWD. At the end of the lecture the breeder mentioned: "but offcoarse this won't work with Louba Tar dogs, there you can't differentiate!" I just smiled and told my boy was one of those Louba tar!

And for those who have seen mal nourished dogs from Corrie at shows, did it never occur to you ,to have the present vets called in to check on the dogs and have them disq?
Friendship takes you a long way, but no judge or vet will risk his reputation if a dog is more than just skinny, and if Corrie is as stupid as to proudly ,openly show dogs in a deplorable state, shame on all of you for just standing by, talking afterwards but not taking responsibility for the health of a dog!!
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Old 16-12-2007, 18:09   #74
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Hi everyone,

Reading all this, I would like to go back basic: For me in general it is important that a dog looks healthy, well fed and with a nice shiny coat. When I look at the photos on this forum of the dogs from Louba Tar, I just see scraggs and bags of bones, dressed in neglected and shabby coats. If a breeder has so many dogs, in my opinion it is comparable with a cattlefarmer. The cattle is the source of income. The farmer feeds the cattle, puts them in a pen of a kennel, breed, and when a piece of cattle is no longer usefull because of age or otherwise, it goes to the butcher. The farmer doesn't see the cattle as pets, but as living tools, that you should take care of very well (at least we hope so), because it generates income. I think one shouldn't do so with dogs, but these breeders don't see it that way. I would not buy a puppy there, because I don't want a puppy from a bag of bones, and I also think it is bizar that dogs in that shape can win prices at dogshows. It is like seeing a model on the catwalk suffering from anorexia. The difference is that the dog has no choice ...
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Old 16-12-2007, 22:50   #75
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Originally Posted by Joyce View Post
Paul, it almost seems like you are the owner of this site.
If somebody ask some questions back, you stated that we make silly remarks, and if somebody is more in to your corner than you say thank you for your post.
So you say that if a friend is also at the kennel of which you say time after time that dogs should not live in these circumstances than it is ok to leave your dogs there? They are still in the kennels and with somebody who you obviously does not like!
I totally agree with you and I never said that dogs should live in terrible circumstances so reed my post first well before you react.
I have read all your posts and in every post you say almost the same. I find it still very strange that it took you so long and that you ask people on the forum to send you pictures etc. just to have more evidence. So I'm thinking that your "case" is not as strong as you let believing us.
A forum is a place to let everybody learn from each other, and to speak of interesting matters. NOT FOR PERSONAL VENDETTA'S !
i have no dogs at de louba tar kennels, paul
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Old 16-12-2007, 23:03   #76
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Originally Posted by Navarre View Post
About the theme of thread : I saw some very ugly Kaizer-type csw after a big rainfall. But the cages are big, much bigger than the ones of many other so called breeders in Italy, Slovakia, Czech rep.

Dear mr. Pacino, you should put in the court many more italian, slovakian or Czech "breeders" and owners that keep dogs closed in a smaller kennel all day long!

Or - better- you can solve your VERY PERSONAL PROBLEM with Mrs Kaizer out of this forum.
hi so you are a moderator on this site, i will be glad to have any kennel you can tell that is not correct listed and reported to the authorities, i need hard evidence, photos with land marks, or statments from people who will state what they know in court of law, there are plenty of groups in europe who will take on and deal with these things, it is sad that you are moderator for you show me disrespect as i tell all you people of the horific conditions at de louba tar, i think you dont want to know about how these poor animals have to live and from your discusting attitude you sound like you dont give a dam?/ it is not personal as there are many people involved in this and many many statements from lots of people in europe who know this is true, this forum is to discuss a topic i think my topic is of great importance to all dog lovers and breeders alike i am sorry you are not one of them,,paul
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Old 17-12-2007, 00:44   #77
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Sorry Mr. Pacino, but you photos don't signify much to me :

1) some dogs are thin (some not) but I always see Kaizer dog's in some important dog shows and they are always so skinny...I think she won't show them if they are ill dogs. I think judges should recognize ill dogs.
Ok, they are very ugly csw but it's not a crime.
In a photo mrs. Kaizer seems to show proud his skinny dog ? Is she crazy ?

2) small number of dogs in cages, max. 2 dogs in a large kennel. So no over numbering.

3) no shit or other similar visible in photos : seems that they keep them clean, even when it's raining.

Personally I agree that I never will keep so many dogs closed in cages, but as far I know many breeders (or puppy producers) keep dogs in this manner. Is just a question of numbers.

I don't know the real situation. Of course I can trust to you (but as I said, your photo aren't a clear evidence of guilty) but I can trust too to other French people that visited the kennel and now don't think about this the same of you.

Where is the truth ? I think only you and your old time friend Mrs. Keizer wiil know.
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Old 17-12-2007, 01:30   #78
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i have no dogs at de louba tar kennels, paul
That is not what I am saying. Once again read my post very well before answering.
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Old 17-12-2007, 01:36   #79
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hi so you are a moderator on this site, i will be glad to have any kennel you can tell that is not correct listed and reported to the authorities, i need hard evidence, photos with land marks, or statments from people who will state what they know in court of law, there are plenty of groups in europe who will take on and deal with these things, it is sad that you are moderator for you show me disrespect as i tell all you people of the horific conditions at de louba tar, i think you dont want to know about how these poor animals have to live and from your discusting attitude you sound like you dont give a dam?/ it is not personal as there are many people involved in this and many many statements from lots of people in europe who know this is true, this forum is to discuss a topic i think my topic is of great importance to all dog lovers and breeders alike i am sorry you are not one of them,,paul
Discusting attitude..... and you started the post by asking for evidence and photos. Who has a discusting attitude then??
Mr Pacino, do what you have to do, but use a forum for discussion and not for backstabbing people or accusing them from discusting attitude if they are not agree with you! You are getting annoying us!
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Old 17-12-2007, 23:54   #80
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hi, now that the price war seems to be drying up !! you may be interested to know that after 5yrs & 7 mths work & effort by my wife mandy, myself & corrie keizer after tons of paperwork, hundreds of phone calls, endless red tape, & pleading with kennel club, lynx legends puppies are all now on the working & obedience register with the kennel club of great britian, the first step to get the breed reconised in uk, we need 10 czechs in uk to get on import register, then we will put the breed up to become fully reconised in uk, we have dogs that will be imported this year to make up the numbers, it has been long hard dtruggle but worth every day, corrie has give us support from day one, without her help there would be no czechs in uk, also many thanks to robb in hollan who bred lynx, so i think it is fair to say we have made a big effort for the breed, corrie & i promoted the first czech ever at crufts, we produced the first litter in uk, the strang thing is for all our effort & work, it did not even get a mention on wolfdog.org from all the czech owners & breeders on wolfdog.org we have only recieved two private email to congratulate us on our effort, a few words of support would have been nice now & then but not to worry, hopefully next year we will be the complete attension at discover dogs at crufts standing proude with our czechoslovakian wolfdogs. best regards paul,mandy & corrie.............


This is an earlier post from you Paul in another topic on this forum......
So my remark about a personal vendetta were not far from the truth!

And I still found it very strange that you be at the kennels of Corrie for 18 months and not saying anything to here then....If you were so concerned with the dogs I think you could have done something about it during your stay over there. If you told Corrie that you find the dogs skinny, sick or what ever she sure was reasonable enough to listen to you.
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