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Old 13-12-2007, 13:01   #41
nanouk
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@ paul

I am very curious as to why you come out with these pictures now (you already gave them to the NVSWH close to 2 yrs ago ). You seem so confident about having a solid case.. Why risk your solid case for a little bit of exposure and stirring public opinion, why not strike hard after you have won the case?!

Furthermore i still remember your old website, where you showed a completely different image of the kennels, and i remember your beautifull pictures of the dogs at the agility place and of fe Skog in his kennel...
At what time where you stirring and misleading public opinion?
I still recall your wife at the show in luxemburg, and our conversation at that time.. could my english be so bad that i took her dissapointment in the kennel for plain out positivism and a wish to work together with Louba Tar kennels?

Is it why the situation was so appalling at the kennels that it took you 18 months to figure that out, is that why you and Corrie introduced the first TWH at crufts and , correct me if i am wrong, according to show results you co- owned a dog with her, and she showed also your great japanse for you , even after you have left the kennel?

I do not feel the need to defend CA Keizer, i have been there myself on several occasions, i do not depend on hearsay and images to make my opinion. Wished more people would do that!
But am curious to why your change of opinion
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Old 13-12-2007, 13:56   #42
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Hi,

I think that many people from all over the world are reading this topic and they try to follow the evolution of this all. Many of them never heard of 'de Louba Tar' before, but most of them already heard other rumours about this kennel. Not only about (too) many dogs, bad conditions, skinny dogs, dogs looking more like jackals, no bonitation, no HD results, problems with pedigrees, crossings of Saarloos and Czech, etc, etc. Some of these are maybe just rumours, but most of them are true. I know people who have a dog of this kennel and they still haven't got a pedigree of their dog. To give only one example. Why are there problems with pedigrees? Strange things happen at 'the Louba Tar'.
I never met C. Keizer personally, but I can believe she's intelligent and ok, maybe she knows a lot about dogs. But why doesn't she put the theories in her mind into practice? Her dogs are not according to the standard. She probably knows enough about genetics to fix this problem.
You can talk and discuss endlessly about this subject. And it's easy to talk about where other people are making mistakes. But de Louba Tar is probably not the only kennel where things go wrong. But I'm glad that some people make these things public. Not so we can all critisize those breeders, but we can try to learn from them. It's not our task to judge other people. But it's good to know some things about other people, to be informed. What you do with this information, is your own choice.
Of topic, but I think we should coöperate more as breeders and active wolfdog owners. But because we're all afraid to be judged by others, we're scared talk about negative things that are going on in our own kennel. A breeder who would talk open about a genetic disease found in one of his dogs (which he or she uses to breed with), would be judged in the negative way. Why? Dogs with genetic diseases exist. It's not a shame to have a dog with for example HD E. But talk about it and try to find out together where this problem comes from. Maybe it's only because of an accident as a puppy, maybe there's a problem in his bloodline or a certain combination that causes this problem to become worse... But we all keep our mouths shut about our own problems . Together we could make a difference for the breed, not if we keep working on our own. But like I said, of topic.
Many people don't dare to give their comments on this topic, because they want to 'stay friends' with everyone and they don't discuss this publicly. I must say I don't want to judge anyone, not even C. Keizer, but I'm glad that some people have the *** to share this kind of information with others.

Greetings,

Liesbeth
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Old 13-12-2007, 14:15   #43
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"we should cooperate more as breeders and active wolfdog owners"

That is more than true. WE REALLY SHOULD. And not only because of healthyness, but also because unsuitable / untrustable future puppybuyers. Every time, if i do not sell a pup to someone, i have a reason for it. I do not make litters for keeping all pups by myself, or i do not sell my pups in ads (public) if i want keep all pups by me at home.
But there is always someone who will sell pup, sooner or later.
It feels like my work and selection is nothing.
Is it so, that as pups will go abroad, problems will go abroad as well?
Long distance = no problems?

Still, i must say, that there is TOO MANY unsuitable owners for wolfdogs. Breeders should co-operate and listen each others as they are selling pups. I think, nobody wants problematic dogs in own country.
(because wrong owners)
Even, there is lot of differences between countries, but for example nordic countries are very strict, and we do not need problematic owners / dogs in Nordic countries.

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Old 13-12-2007, 16:22   #44
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Still, i must say, that there is TOO MANY unsuitable owners for wolfdogs. Breeders should co-operate and listen each others as they are selling pups. I think, nobody wants problematic dogs in own country.
(because wrong owners)
Even, there is lot of differences between countries, but for example nordic countries are very strict, and we do not need problematic owners / dogs in Nordic countries.

-Suski
Suski, you are right (though this theme is a bit off-topic). However, you and Liesbeth speak about breeders. But you have to keep in mind, that there are people among us, who call themselves breeders, yet in fact they are simply puppy producers, who do not care, to who they will sell their puppy, as long as they make money.
As long as these puppy producers will sell their pups to anyone who is ready to pay (and they of course advertise also here, on this site), there will always be unsuitable CSW owners, as well as later unwanted CSW dogs, CSW dogs in rescues or even euthanised.
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Old 13-12-2007, 22:00   #45
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Originally Posted by nanouk View Post
@ paul

I am very curious as to why you come out with these pictures now (you already gave them to the NVSWH close to 2 yrs ago ). You seem so confident about having a solid case.. Why risk your solid case for a little bit of exposure and stirring public opinion, why not strike hard after you have won the case?!

Furthermore i still remember your old website, where you showed a completely different image of the kennels, and i remember your beautifull pictures of the dogs at the agility place and of fe Skog in his kennel...
At what time where you stirring and misleading public opinion?
I still recall your wife at the show in luxemburg, and our conversation at that time.. could my english be so bad that i took her dissapointment in the kennel for plain out positivism and a wish to work together with Louba Tar kennels?

Is it why the situation was so appalling at the kennels that it took you 18 months to figure that out, is that why you and Corrie introduced the first TWH at crufts and , correct me if i am wrong, according to show results you co- owned a dog with her, and she showed also your great japanse for you , even after you have left the kennel?

I do not feel the need to defend CA Keizer, i have been there myself on several occasions, i do not depend on hearsay and images to make my opinion. Wished more people would do that!
But am curious to why your change of opinion
hi i take no risk at all, all is complete, i only wait on word foe date, yes when i went to live in france there were 49 dogs and conditions were good, we planned to open wolfpark also, with friends from holland , as time went on, the numbers of dogs grew, we had to work very long days, we were over run with dogs, we had dogs living everywhere, dogs lived in pens in the garden, they had no kennels and slept under the trees, the dogs were feed every day, but dogs get thin and loose weight because they have no shelter, even the hardest of dogs with the thickest of coats will soon get cold. and worst of all is lying on wet and damp soil, many times we tried to leave but felt so much for the dogs we stayed , at the end we could cope no more , we wanted so much to phone the authorities but were very affraid as the french authorities do not hang about, mrs Keizer kennels are for 49 dogs only not 119, you can just imagine how the authorities would of sorted this out, they put down over 40 dogs the year before as a breeder failed to comply with regulations, we asked for building material, we asked to cut down in dogs, at the end we had friends visit when corrie was out, we had our friends call as we needed help, we wanted people to tell us it was best to leave, it was very hard to walk away but with help we decided what was best for the dogs, so yes the first lot of months were great, and we loved every minute, you have been to the kennels, have you been down to the cellar? have you been in maternity unit? no you have not for no one gets there,,,, did you visit when there was 119 dogs at the kennels? by the way i took all my great japanese dogs with me, corrie did breed the bitch that was in co ownership with me after i left and she did fordge my name to register the pups,,,,, ther are over 150 photos of the dogs and conditions at the kennels only 24 were supplied by me, other photos were taken by friends of corries who visited and then passed on to others with critical remarks, but still no one reports it , i sent a post to this site regarding the first litter of czechs born in luxemburg by Gabrial lyns, stating all the information on this litter was incorrect, it was not put on the site, even though i have evidense which proves other wise, i sent email to margo, maybe she will publish it onn site if you ask,,regards paul
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Old 13-12-2007, 22:22   #46
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Paul, I'm not glad the way you used this forum. For the rest it's not my position to judge or to post my thoughts regarding the lack of all the complete informations. I guess many of us should wait complements or justice informations before posting side way. One first justice principle: the doubt have to profit to the shown. At the present time you did not bring enough for the doubt to disappear, so you started a rumour (maybe many people know more about this story, but most of the people reading don't !). I wait more additions from you or the authorities, and will stop posting as it will be steril and contribute to the rumour (right now it's still a rumour).

I don't like to see such pictures posted without all the context detailed. I don't like the way you made it public and then said I have to wait to give more informations (so then my opinion is you should also have waited to post this). I know many rumours which ran this way and was wrong at the end ; but then, even the facts corrected it was to late, people were definitely spoiled.

To be clear to you: my contestation is the form you used, which is definitly wrong (even if all you said I right). The form you present it is very important, and there are rules to follow to be clean. I not habilitated to judge the rest and won't do in the name of my thoughts. So I wait for the end of the full story, which will be bad and sad in each case.

Anthony
what details do you want the photos are all taken at be louba tar kennels,,, it was made public to let people see the terrible conditions, what is wrong with that, i was told i could use the photos but not disclose other information as it was protected, a rumour is hear say ,, the photos are facts on paper, and will be and have been excepted as evidence so how are they rumours please explain?? the forum is used to greate topics of interest to other dog owners, breeders or lovers, i am well within my rights to post this on the forum as i think it is a complete disgrace the living conditions of the animals, how will it end sad if these poor dogs get a better life,, i think your post is very sad,, as i have said before if anything i say is not true then MRS Keizer should get a legal representitive at once and proecute me for slander, i have already put my full name and address on this topic, i would look very forward to seeing this breeder in any court at any time.. paul
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Old 13-12-2007, 23:29   #47
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Hmm, i have question.
Mrs. Keizer have big kennel and ...what? what good she have breeding? not good dogs type, not good charakter or good work rezults. Wheil she have 49 dogs if not make too breed good future?

to me max 10 dogs and ALL mas living in house, not kennel, and this people i named breeders, others is moore producents not breeders.

but this is me opinion, i not kant Keizer, but shes dogs not like me as wolfdogs, and i not see good breedings rezults in shes kennel.
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Old 14-12-2007, 00:31   #48
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Hmm, i have question.
Mrs. Keizer have big kennel and ...what? what good she have breeding? not good dogs type, not good charakter or good work rezults. Wheil she have 49 dogs if not make too breed good future?

to me max 10 dogs and ALL mas living in house, not kennel, and this people i named breeders, others is moore producents not breeders.

but this is me opinion, i not kant Keizer, but shes dogs not like me as wolfdogs, and i not see good breedings rezults in shes kennel.
hi, yes Mrs Keizer has big kennels, i worked with all her dogs for long time and no dog ever showed any agression to my wife or i , if anything most where of a shy nature, as for working although they did not train to work does not mean they could not work, fact is we loved all the dogs no mater what make or shape they were, what ever mrs Keizer did with her breeding that was incorrect then she will have to answer to the authorities, my main concern is with the welfare of the dogs, breeding and other irregularities that took place are being delt with by other people in europe, i am only concerned that all the dogs no matter what they look like are put in better living conditions, regards paul
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Old 15-12-2007, 01:59   #49
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Originally Posted by Pacino
i am only concerned that all the dogs no matter what they look like are put in better living conditions
I really not know how it works in europe, remembering that this local is public and all who want can read and understand as they wish, haven't the danger of someone alert the zoonosis control center for put an end in that kennel? These fotos are suficiently for zoonosis control go and see if it's all truth, if they do that I don't think that they will leave these dogs alive...

Last edited by Nebulosa; 15-12-2007 at 02:03.
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Old 15-12-2007, 02:11   #50
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hi everybody ...y have today mrs c.keizer to speak about this post ...after discussions and after consult some people (friend /lawers etc ....)she decide to write ...y post for her ...(because she never write on this public forum first time because she don' t want spend her time (so busy )on and second part because this is not in her mentality to talk negativly ....

"Amazing what you can do on internetforums to harm people you do not dare to confront in a more personal way.
This is not the first time Mr. Winder attacks cwd breeders and maybe the best way is to ignore hysterical allegations.
But one wonders why now, after all these years?
He seems to forget that he and his wife Mandy were guests at the Louba-Tar kennels for one and a half year and that maybe he even built the pens he took pictures from after heavy rainfall.
Should he have done a better job?
It did not seem to bother him at that time to leave his 7 dogs in these kennels when he left for Spain for a period of 5 whole months.
Pictures of the Louba-Tar dogs are used and abused by Mr. Winder as its suits his purposes:
in September 2006 pictures taken at the same kennel were there to illustrate happy dogs, running around in flowery surroundings.
But then Mr. Winder wanted to show off as THE specialist on wolfdogs in the UK, repeating everything he had learned at the Louba-Tar kennels.
It's almost X-mas and wouldn't it be great if the forum was a place where you exchange experiences with people who are mad about these wonderful dogs called czechoslowakian wolfdogs instead of turning it into a dustbin for frustated crap? C.KEIZER"


just precify that y hope her words find sense and lightly mind .....greatings ...furyos
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Old 15-12-2007, 12:35   #51
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You're probably right, Suski, but the size of the kennel is not the core issue here, isn't it? It only indicates the scale of the problem - it would be easier to rehome 2-3, even 5 dogs than 20 or more.

Paul, I suppose everybody would be grateful for more information and more details, such as e.g. when and by whom these photos were taken and what steps were taken....
You've publicly made a serious accusation - honestly, it's hard to belive any breeder would keep his/her animals in such conditions - it would be totally irrational in the long run. Maybe the owner is sick or so, can't cope and needs help instead of criticism?

Has anybody else visited the place or bought pup/pups from this kennel? Can Paul's information be confirmed by others? Has the issue been ever discussed on the French forum?
Hi, I'm new here and a saarlooswolfdogowner.I have visited Corrie's kennel once and met her several times on shows etc.When I visited the kennel in France we got the grand tour, and it struck me that allthough she has that many dogs, they were welltreated and looked after!It is true that Corrie likes her dogs skinny, and so do I, but I think that some dogs on the pictures suffer from some kind of desease, and this is certainly not the look of the majority of dogs. The pictures were most certainly taken after a once a year big rainfall, because when we were there it rained also and there were absolutely no flooded kennels!I remember also to have met the person that took the pictures, I think he and his woman were working as volunteers at that time but I can be wrong....?HälsningarRickSweden
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Old 15-12-2007, 13:11   #52
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Furyos, I don't know the breeder and I don’t know Paul but you can't deny that even if you call Paul's posts 'manipulation', one may easily count the dogs' ribs on both Paul's and Mirka's photos. Surely CSVs are not greyhounds, are they? I see no reason why Mirka should manipulate the photos if all other pictures she takes bring out the best of every dog?

Besides, you defend the French breeder... Fine, but two things surprise me:
First: you don't seem to worry about the welfare of de Louba Tar dogs. How would you feel IF it turns out that Paul was right and he (and others involved) will win the case in court (or whatever they plan) What will your reaction be IF Paul manages to proove that the dogs were kept in terrible conditions? Will you still defend the breeder and attack Paul? Or will you apologise him? Remember, we're talking here about living creatures. It's not an academic discussion!

Mind you: I'm not saying that this will happen for sure, but wouldn't it be wiser to withhold your judgements before you and we all learn more about the case and Paul's 'action' is brought out to the public?

Secondly: you accuse Paul of hypocrisy, bad intentions, hidden agenda, call him names while in fact we don't know where the truth lies. Your attitude and blind defence is weird to me and makes me wonder what YOUR intentions are? National loyalty or common interests with the breeder? Are you aware that you're risking your own reputation? If she loses the case you'll be disregarded by the majority of CSV owners community, not only in France.

Another question: what would you do if you had such knowledge like Paul? Keep it to yourself or display it? Any time, or only if you compiled good evidence?

***
What would each of us do in such circumstances?
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Old 15-12-2007, 16:51   #53
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I always promised myself that I won't write to this forum......But it makes me indignant what 's going on again.
For me a little bit strange that a lot of people has got opinion about breeders whom they haven't never known , about dogs which they have never seen ,kennels which they have never visited!
To cause bad reputation to somebody else is very easy, to attact sb. else, hurt somebody else it is easy but not too intelligent. If sb. has got personal conflict please arange it by private mail and try to respect each other. All of them try to walk in own shoes, in own way with and without fault.

A lot of person among us was very young (or maybe hasn't been alived yet) when Cornelia started to deal with saarloose and csw. Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top.
The only thing what we could do to study from her!!!!!! and RESPECT her!!!!


Edit Molnar / kennel Crying Wolf

PS: please remember that it could be brought an action for liber against those who write fault things....
and I'm realy envy that a lot of people has got a lot of time to write this forum but it would be better if they go to deal with thier dogs inspite of this!!!!!!
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Old 15-12-2007, 17:49   #54
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Originally Posted by Jasmine
Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top.
Dogshows means nothing, most of then are only politic, some of then are judge for persons who not have knowledge for judge the breed, so is more valid the "show" than the dog quality, we can see that now in Alicante, Spain dogshow where the dogs was judged by one molosser specialist, who have no idea about the breed, was a big dogshow but without value for who whant one second opinion by one "specialist", so that can change a little bit when we talk about special breed dog show or specific breed selection tests as bonitation, have she any bonitated CzW?
I have no idea about shes work with saarloos, but this about dog shows never change independant of the breed.
If she cannot select right CzW or not want spend time with the breed, or who knows... not like the breed as like the saarloos, so is more easy stop breeding CzW and continue only with Saarloos.
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Old 15-12-2007, 19:33   #55
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A lot of person among us was very young (or maybe hasn't been alived yet) when Cornelia started to deal with saarloose and csw. Her first profil is the saarloose and please look after the results of the big dogshows.....her dogs are always on the top.
The only thing what we could do to study from her!!!!!! and RESPECT her!!!!
Dog shows mean NOTHING. Especially if the titles are given by judges, who are her friends, or judges, who know nothing of the breed at all.

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Edit Molnar / kennel Crying Wolf

PS: please remember that it could be brought an action for liber against those who write fault things....
and I'm realy envy that a lot of people has got a lot of time to write this forum but it would be better if they go to deal with thier dogs inspite of this!!!!!!
You are right. So please, start at your own kennel. Cause I´ve heard also some very bad rumours about dogs who come from your kennel...
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Old 15-12-2007, 19:54   #56
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I was very amazed when I was reading this topic.
A friend of mine has two dogs from this kennel and I can asure you that they were in good condition when he got them!
These two dogs have very good manners, looking great, are in good shape and are kindly to people they know.
When a breeder loves to have their dogs a bit thin is that forbidden?? Its up to the new owner to keep it that way or to change it, if dogs are to fat you have lots of trouble to get them on a diet.
In the reaction of mrs. Keizer I understood that you, Paul, left 7 dogs with her when you went to Spain! So if this person is not good to her dogs why did you left them with her in the first place? And how about your concerns to the dogs? Did you not have any concerns when you left your dogs with her? Strange ain't it, because when it its to your personal benefit, you do not mind to leave your own dogs with you.
In my personal opinion you have a personal vendetta against this breeder, so please keep it to yourself or to the person involved instead of doing some backstabbing on a public forum.
The pictures shown could be have taken at any kennel, because we never see a name sign or something only some kennels. You stated you have pictures of the kennels you build yourselve there, they were made in summer and you used them for your own promotion, so be a man and show them also to everybody here.
The breeder is much concerned with the dogs, much more than to her own concern, when people who can not cope with the dogs because of their strong temper, spirit and caracter she always takes them back instead of leaving them to theirselves! And this was also in the time you were there I'm sure!!
What I find very strange is that it took you 18 months to go away and also a long time to put all this at the forum. If you are that concerned with the dogs in my opinion I never should take that much time to expell this breeder, so that is also a bit strange ain't it??
Your excuse that you were afraid of the French autorities is also a bit week, these autorithies are still the same so the risk for the dogs still there is the same!
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Old 15-12-2007, 20:45   #57
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You are right. So please, start at your own kennel. Cause I´ve heard also some very bad rumours about dogs who come from your kennel...
Please try to deal with your own things and look around your own hause!
I'm just wondering what could be the reason why you always have to attact somebody, why you always drop with shit. ????? I'm just wondering.........
As I remember we have never met,we have never talk and you have never visited my kennel........and I hear a lot of roumors too but I just believe what I see...and don't care about the people who are talking stupid things....
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Old 15-12-2007, 21:34   #58
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I think this forum is for everybody to express their own opinion. So it's quite normal to attack one another here. But anyway I think it is very important that these matters are discussed here, whether good or bad. And the discussion can be endless, of course. You can criticize one another's breeding manners, but it of course it breaks my heart if somebody, the above mentioned kennel, for example, is mistreating dogs. I don't know what's the truth, but Paul seems to be on good cause. Private matters are private, why bother come here and try and solve them...
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Old 15-12-2007, 22:28   #59
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Please try to deal with your own things and look around your own hause!
I'm just wondering what could be the reason why you always have to attact somebody, why you always drop with shit. ????? I'm just wondering.........
As I remember we have never met,we have never talk and you have never visited my kennel........and I hear a lot of roumors too but I just believe what I see...and don't care about the people who are talking stupid things....
My dear, I am not attacking anyone here, and I am certainly speaking with nicer manner, than you are.
I never said I´ve met you (though I did), I never said I´ve visited you (and I don´t wish to) and sure, we did not talk (and I am happy we did not, seeing your way of expressing yourself).
All I said, is that I´ve heard some rather disturbing rumours about your kennel, which, if they are true, make me think you are not the right one to tell us how to breed and treat our dogs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyone can visit me and my dogs anytime and see how they live and how we take care of them. Only you won´t see any pups here, cause we are not breeding on dysplatic dogs.

And as this topic is about Louba Tar, I don´t see any reason on continuing this off-topic discussion, especially not in this tone and manners.
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Old 15-12-2007, 23:21   #60
solowolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by furyos View Post
hi everybody ...y have today mrs c.keizer to speak about this post ...after discussions and after consult some people (friend /lawers etc ....)she decide to write ...y post for her ...(because she never write on this public forum first time because she don' t want spend her time (so busy )on and second part because this is not in her mentality to talk negativly .... "Amazing what you can do on internetforums to harm people you do not dare to confront in a more personal way.
This is not the first time Mr. Winder attacks cwd breeders and maybe the best way is to ignore hysterical allegations.
But one wonders why now, after all these years?
He seems to forget that he and his wife Mandy were guests at the Louba-Tar kennels for one and a half year and that maybe he even built the pens he took pictures from after heavy rainfall.
Should he have done a better job?
It did not seem to bother him at that time to leave his 7 dogs in these kennels when he left for Spain for a period of 5 whole months.
Pictures of the Louba-Tar dogs are used and abused by Mr. Winder as its suits his purposes:
in September 2006 pictures taken at the same kennel were there to illustrate happy dogs, running around in flowery surroundings.
But then Mr. Winder wanted to show off as THE specialist on wolfdogs in the UK, repeating everything he had learned at the Louba-Tar kennels.
It's almost X-mas and wouldn't it be great if the forum was a place where you exchange experiences with people who are mad about these wonderful dogs called czechoslowakian wolfdogs instead of turning it into a dustbin for frustated crap? C.KEIZER y just precify that y hope her words find sense and lightly mind .....greatings ...furyos
as i have told you before in two posts i will not repeat myself again, but as i said, the conditions are the tip of an iceburg, with so many posts wanting to know all the details i have now give a deadline to the authorities and breed club to take action on this breeder and others, if i do not get response then i and others will go to national papers in uk and europe and every thing will then be publish and out in the open for all to see, i have posted my full name and address so Mrs Keizer can inform her legal representitive to deal with my allegations, after all as you and other say it my be rummors or false information,, but just think, do you really think i would do this if i was not correct, as you are in contact with Mrs Keizer why noy ask her why she does not take legal action against me? yes i did build some compounds for the dogs and yes if Mrs Keizer had of given me the money i could have made shelters, mr Gerrard de moore and many others also helped build at these kennels maybe they to could have built them better as well, also it costs alot of money to take 4-6 dogs to shows and we all know Mrs Keizer attended lots and not just in France so maybe this money would have been better spent on the dogs living quarters as well, every question you ask i will have an answer , but the facts are i worked there i did not own or run the kennels, if you would like me to send you videos please send your private email address and i will send you some, the photos are mild compared to the horendous video clips we have and not all were taken by me, best regards paul
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