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Old 26-01-2007, 09:42   #1
Liesbeth
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That is very true. Here in Belgium, they're very strict. Many dogs who got tested here and received HDC, received HDA in the Netherlands. Based on the SAME x-rays. So photo's from Belgium were send to other countries to judge them to. And all the other countries were less strict and dogs received A or B, while they received C or D in Belgium, based on the same photo. That's why many dogs got 'sold' to, for example, the Netherlands. Then they got tested for HD (most of the time with good results) and then they were sold back to Belgium. So the Belgian breeder got a HDA-dog. In Belgium that dog would have got HDB-C or even D... For that reason, all the countries have come together for a meeting and they discussed the problem of the interpretation of HD-photos and how the dog has to be x-rayed, what age and so on. So they're working on that problem, since one year.

The example I gave about the dogs who got sold to other countries... That is NOT about wolfdogs.I was just talking in general. In Belgium we don't have a lot of wolfdogs and the few breeders in Belgium are really trying to do their very best for the breed. The rules for breeding are also very strict in Belgium. Not only about the hips, but also your dog needs good show results, proof that she is a good working dog and so on. I mention this, just in case some people think there are no rules for breeding here in Belgium

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Old 26-01-2007, 10:58   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesbeth
The example I gave about the dogs who got sold to other countries... That is NOT about wolfdogs.I was just talking in general. In Belgium we don't have a lot of wolfdogs and the few breeders in Belgium are really trying to do their very best for the breed. The rules for breeding are also very strict in Belgium. Not only about the hips, but also your dog needs good show results, proof that she is a good working dog and so on. I mention this, just in case some people think there are no rules for breeding here in Belgium

Liesbeth
Liesbeth, I am sorry, but who told you this? Because I do not think it is true, what you say. Yes, maybe now, that there is new CSW Belgium club, things will (WILL) move into better. But, so far I did not notice, that the rules for breeding CSW´s in Belgium were strict.

Your own Belgian breeder, let´s not name her, made her first puppies on female with HD C and father with HD B. The male did not have any working tests and was not even from this (Belgium) country. The female does not have any working tests either and when I saw her, she was quite shy.

Another very "famous" Belgian breeder made so many puppies, that it is not even funny. And that on dogs both x-rayed and not x-rayed, no matter on the results of x-rays, no working tests and most of the dogs I´ve seen from this kennel were shy as hell.

I do not think, there is single CSW in Belgium who passed some real working test. (Except one that managed to run 40km at a bike, which is in Slovakia considered working test. In CR it is not.) What do you call working abilities? For me it is, if the dog passes a working test under supervision of the judge, with satisfying results. Not if the dog passes a test to go from obedience group A to obedience group B. Not if the dog is able to walk on leash, or if he is able to sit on command. Every poodle can do that.

And good dog show results? What it is? If the judge does not know, how CSW should look like, what the standard says and even worse, does not know that shy and aggressive dogs should be excluded from judging, then their opinion, judgment and titles given have no value at all.

Example on my own dog, Cira. She has bad mask, very long tail, brown eyes. From experienced Czech judge, specialist on the breed, the best she could get was excellent. From inexperinced Czech judge, she´d get minor titles. From inexperienced judges as Belgian, French or others, she was given BOB, CAC and CACIB´s. I was really laughing.
And then another example. Polish judge who I expected to be more experienced, gives in Belgium first place to female, that does not have the height limit and is shy as hell.
Conclusion? Dog show results are NOTHING, if they do not come from experienced judges who know, what they are judging.

So my opinion is, that situation with breeding CSW in Belgium up to now resembled Wild West, people did what they want and how they want. And some of them would like to continue with that, of that I am sure. However, luckily enough, there are now also some, that want to go the right way. Do bonitations, do x-rays, make some rules and stick to them. Such people should be supported, cause that´s the way to breed. All the rest is just mass production for money.

And for Frank: sorry man, but in France it is as bad as in Belgium.
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Old 26-01-2007, 11:16   #3
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Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1
And then another example. Polish judge who I expected to be more experienced, gives in Belgium first place to female, that does not have the height limit and is shy as hell.
Conclusion? Dog show results are NOTHING, if they do not come from experienced judges who know, what they are judging.
The Polish judge is great example for fight with windmills...

We spoke with him MANY times about the character - that these dogs can't be shy... But it is not possible to do unpossible things...

We have in Poland breeder which caims to be "experienced breeder which has the only good line of CzW selected by Mr. Hartl" which dogs are so shy that some of them just lie on the ground in the ring. What should the judges think if it is told them that the dogs were CHOOSED by Hartl himself as "excellent examples of this breed"?

But there is more... we said to the judge you mention that CzW must have stable character... it was OK till he saw the judging of CzW in Czech Republic (he is frequently invited to judge 1. Group FCI there) in Mlada Boleslav. There were more nice CzWs but BOB get female with the tail on the bely... and she was judged by so called "experienced CzW judge". But there is more - the same judge choosed her also in the main ring - she get BOG 2. or BOG 3... After all the Polish judge asked us WHY we are telling CzW must have stable character if in Czech Republic win dogs which are simply "shy like hell"?

I know we can talk about connections... And it was good example... but judges from abroad see what the see.... they do not see a judge which is very good friend of the breeder of this dog but ONLY the result: scared, shy CzW which gets BOB in the country of origin...
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Old 26-01-2007, 12:38   #4
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To Mirka: You know that I'm 'new' in the world of Wolfdogs and when I talk about rules in Belgium, I'm talking about this moment. I try to learn a lot about the breed and I read much on internet, and I look in the database to. I try to learn more about every single breeder and when someone (for exemple Margo) tells something interesting on the forum about bloodlines or anything else, I print it out and I collect everything. I read English, Dutch, German, French,... forum. I'm willing to learn. I've noticed that also the breeder of my youngest pup makes sometimes bad choices... Before I made the reservation for my puppy, I asked her about bonitation, work, hip-results (those of Merlin she didn't know yet). I agreed making a reservation ONLY when Merlin had HDA (and he turned out to have HDA, so now I have my puppy).
It's a shame that some people have managed to breed all the time without any rules! I'm happy that CSW Belgium made some rules for breeding. But when I was a breeder, I would have done all these things without the rules of the club to. So it's hard for me to understand that some people don't do this, out of theirselves. When everything turnes out right, I want to breed to. But ONLY when my dog is 'good enough' and only when I have good hip-results and good bonitation and when the character of my dog stays like it is now (she's very open and social). I'm following a study of 2 years for becoming a dog breeder. I'm doing this just because I want to know more about dogs in general, even when I would not have the intention to breed.
So about the rules: 'they finally arrived', so let's hope that things will be better in the future.

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Old 26-01-2007, 12:52   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesbeth
I'm happy that CSW Belgium made some rules for breeding. But when I was a breeder, I would have done all these things without the rules of the club to. So it's hard for me to understand that some people don't do this, out of theirselves. When everything turnes out right, I want to breed to. But ONLY when my dog is 'good enough' and only when I have good hip-results and good bonitation and when the character of my dog stays like it is now (she's very open and social). I'm following a study of 2 years for becoming a dog breeder. I'm doing this just because I want to know more about dogs in general, even when I would not have the intention to breed.
I like this a lot! More people (both owners and breeders) like this, in all countries, please!
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