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Old 01-03-2006, 10:39   #21
Koos
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Hello Hanka,

I know it is not usual but it do not happens, as far as I know, by CSW breeders, but by other races.

Here in Holland they offer their puppies by private adresses. I was there several times and they say that these puppies are 6 or 7 weeks old and they are mostly ill.

All these puppies have pedigrees as well and next week, there will by a story by television, about this kind of dogbusiness. And it are not only puppies from Czech Republique but also from Slowakia and Hungary.

These puppies come over by 20 or 30 puppies together.

So you can speak about business in selling dogs as well and by the adresses I was several times, it were often puppies from the same mother, every half year. Poor dear.


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Old 01-03-2006, 12:09   #22
massimo
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thank you all for your comments
let me recap.
I seem to have understood by you that it is fundamental that puppies get a socialization as soon as possible.
So it is best to give puppies at 5-6 weeks.
None of you seem to like the idea to give away puppies less than 5 weeks.
You are also not against giving puppies at 8-9 weeks as long as they get an appropriate socialization.
Am I correct?
Thank you for any of your comments because I will then pass this argument to the italian forum (it will cost me some time translating all your comments!!)

Ah...for those living in countries were it is not allowed legally to give puppies away before 8 weeks, I do not care about law in your country but about your opinion as Breeders.
If I should look at law...I would look at Norway and not have my wonderful WDogs because they would be considered dangerous.

GRRRRRROOOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!

again, your comments are very much appreciated
massimo
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Old 01-03-2006, 13:03   #23
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Hello,

here in Gemany it is not allowed for FCI-Breeders to give their puppies away befor the age of 8 weeks.
I too don´t see any problems with this as long as the breeder cares for the socialisation. We get a lot of visitors in this time and start to take the puppies to crowded places like shopping centers and pubs at about 5-6 weeks. The go by car, see cats, horses and so on. We even went to a holliday with a litter of 9 puppies in the age of 4,5 weeks.
As long as socialisation is done properly I think it is better for the puppy to stay with his mother and the rest of it´s family for this two more weeks. Looking at our pack they get a lot of education and socialisation from the older dogs that they wouldn´t get if they would stay as a single dog with their new owner.
If the breeder isn´t willing to care for the socilisation or doesn´t have enough time 8 weeks ist quite late for that breed to start with it and you normally get several dogs out of those litters with shyness problems. In this case it sure is better to give them away with 5-6 weeks.

Ina
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Old 01-03-2006, 13:52   #24
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Hello Ina, you wrote, it is not problem about later selling, for example in the 8 weeks. I think, the socialisation is very important and separate of pupies from mother and other adult dogs is better.The puppy must be with people, not with dogs. The puppy can see other dogs on the walk or on the garden sometimes, but pppy must be with people. Write me, why is so much shy wolfdogs in the west Evropa? And in Italian ? Why is in the Czech republis less of them? I think, it is selling in the 6weeks and good socialisation. I look at gallery of your kennel. It was quick research, only. There are fotos 27? dogs. On the 11 fotos from show or other dog´s actions are shy wolfdogs ( with tail under stomach). I like character of 7 dogs only( Caya,Chester, Clint, Ela, Erin, Farin, Freya). Other 17 dogs have fotos too. But we don´t see the character, because the fotos are from walking, from garden from home. It is normal situation. Really character we can see for example on the show.
So, where is problem? Bad your socialisation? Or do you sold them later? Or bad socialisation of owners?
My opinion is: 6weeks-ideal, under 6weeks- pointless soon, after 6weeks- not good ( or breeder must do perfect socialisation and take puppies to strange people).
PS: Sorry about my research in your kennel
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Old 01-03-2006, 16:10   #25
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Thank you for your point of view hanka.
I quite agree with you, for me 6 weeks is perfect, unless socialization is done well.
By this I mean not necessarily to stay with dogs.
Perfect breeder would bring dogs, separately, amongst people and in different environments.
Who produces many dogs (.. ..) cannot do this because it is too time wasting.
I remember crazy Margo brought all the new litter to slovakian summer camp (I saw from photos and was told by friends)
This is risky for health but FANTASTIC for socialization.
I absolutely agree that if dogs stay too long with breeder amongst dogs seeing only dogs and breeder...shy dog comes out...consequently it is best to give dogs before (and it is also cheaper!!)
In this case all depends on owner.

Please Ina do not take it as an offence from Hanka as it is clear to me she is just making an example.

I can speak about my own example.
I have one Passo del Lupo dog and one Crying wolf dog.

Passo del lupo makes many dogs and from my experience there is not a percentage of dogs more or less shy.
I am friend of Fabio (and friend of many others...) and I know that in the past the most shy dogs of his were...his own!!! not the ones he sold!
Today things are changing because growth of puppies is changing (inviting friends to play with puppies for a long time for example)
I have also a Crying Wolf dog.
All litter of my Lunatica (the ones I saw) grew up quite shy. Very shy.
Also Lunatica would have been very shy if I didn't make extreem efforts in socialization (from 60days to 90 days, every evening a walk in the city center, alone just me and her).
But....she remains suspicious and wolfish deep inside!
I also had at home a puppy of Oliver and Upstream for 15 days before selling her.
They have both excellent characters, and I made the same socialization of this puppy.
Today she has the best character i've ever seen. afraid of nothing and nobody!!!

Socialization is FUNDAMENTAL from 5 weeks to 3 months, according to me, and either done by new owner (better) or by breeder (more difficult) it should be done.

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Old 01-03-2006, 16:11   #26
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I don´t have the time to do that research to. But honestly I don´t think you can judge about dogs from photos from a show, and honestly I don´t really know wich dogs you mean. I judge about shynes in dogs from there behaviour in dayly life in big cities, in big groups of people and so on. I see a big difference in a tail under the stomach because of fear and a tail between the legs just because the dog doesn´t like the situation without being afraid (That may be because I hate indoor shows too). There is one photo I know from Gerda z Rofa, we got her from Slowakia with 6 weeks. And her problem comes from some reasons. Her breeder kept her in an outside garden without much contact to anything else, the first 5 weeks she was kept in a hut without windows. She was the first CZW I got and I was living in a very small town then. I sozialised her like I did with my Irish Wolfhounds what wasn´t enough for her. She still absolutely hates people that speak slowakian or czech language and behaves very shy then.
Oh, I know of another one: Arek Zlata Palz he definatly has a problem with the socialisation of the owner. If you look at his litter, all have left with 8 weeks: Arek is horrible with his owners but improves a lot with us, Amy is absolutely selfsecure, to secure for my taste sometimes, Amyska we have lost contact but she was alright until puberty and got shy afterwards.
What is for the others: Baschka doesn´t like dog shows but has no problems with showing, she has been on several occations on very big indoor shows for race presentation and had to stay there for two days, nine hours each day with hundreds of strange people touching her all day, she normally lies in the middle of everything sleeping. On the last German Club show I had a little problem with proper presentation because she was wagging her tail all the time and therfore dind´t show it like I would have liked. Amy is absolutely cool on shows and doesn´t care for anything. Some dogs like dog shows some dogs hate them without being afraid or shy. Flicka does very well and did the same on the last occasion. And several others do too. Oh I forgot Chaos, she is always in trouble with her sister Caya who is dominating her a lot and therefore is looking very unhappy on occations with wolfdogs around her but not with other dogs.

What´s about shyness in Western Europe dogs. We talked a lot about it with our friends in Slowakia and have been told they had the same problems there too until they started to do more education with the owners. If you look at the dogs that you liked they all are with people that a very strict and consequently (but of course also very loving) with their dogs and they are all with people that kept contact with us about problems. We nowadays are much better with the right choosing of owners then we have been in our first litters, we too learned a lot and our own dogs improoved. If I look at the Western European dogs that make problems and are from responsible breeders most of them have owners that always make the same mistake. They care to much for the wishes of the dogs in the negative point of view and therefore are giving the dog the impression of a weak pack leader (I am not sure if I did describe this right, its a language problem, they see their dog like a kind of child not as a dog), what always and with all races of dogs creates insecure dogs. In the time of puberty when many dogs and also dogs of all other races tend to have a period of some weeks of sudden shyenes they allow them to keep away from situations they don´t like instead of forcing them into facing and solving the situation. Chester for example (the one you liked) suddenly had problems with 1 year for some month and now is absolutely allright again, but he still prefers open air dog shows to indoor ones. And in especially four cases I know they don´t take the puppy every now and then without the other dogs they own what creates dogs that are very shye as soon as they are alone.
To make a long story short, no I don´t think it´s because they leave the breeder later. With a good breeder they have a lot contact to people and they have contact alone with people, in this age it has to be people not their people. I think it´s a problem of wrong, not bad socialisation with the new owner. We have a lot of czech and slowakian dogs in Germany that have been given away with 6 weeks that are very shy too.

But I think that some separation problems result out of too strong owner bonding that results in a kind of emotional dependency of the dog that you shouldn´t find in an adult dog. And I have seen some problems in dogs that have resulted out of to early separation from their family. The research in problems with animals that have been separated to early have shown that the main problems mostly result out of insufficent frustration tolerance. Their first training in handling frustrations that puppies get they get from their mother and litter mates. The other adult dogs of the pack start to train the puppies consequently with about 5 weeks. If the puppy goes to another dog that is able to handle the situation properly no problem, but if it is a single dog without much contact to other dogs exept on walks it is a problem. Not at least because they learn a proper bite inhibition in this time.
I think you can give a wolfdog away with 6 weeks and sometimes it would be better but it is not always better and sometimes even worse.

Ina
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Old 01-03-2006, 21:52   #27
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It is interesting to read so many diferent experiences. Here is ours with a puppy.

We got our puppy when he was about 8 weeks old. My parents were at our house for a whole week on holidays when the puppy for the first time came. We worked during that week and my parents set of for trips without the puppy.

We work both quite long hours. So our pup stayed during the daty in the garden of about 2000m2. He had his friends: straka (I do not know the English work; ekster in Dutch) and all the dogs that passed the garden. At night he slept outside.

When he was about 11 weeks old we went on holidays: 1st week on a dog camp at Tabor and 2nd week to the alps in Austria. Since we got him he is everything but shy and agressive for people, dogs, horses, etc. Actually I think his motto is: I see you, so you are my friend (whether you like it or not).

On saturdays we went to a training ground. In the group was a pitbull terrier that most of the times trained apart because of being a bit agressive to other dogs. This pitbull terrier was about 1 year old while our puppy was about 4 months. At one moment they both decided not to listen to "k mne" (come here) and ran towards eachother. My initial thought was: we can go to the veterinarian very soon from now. Instead of fighting they started running and playing around the whole field and having the best fun when one of the trainers or we "almost" grabbed them.

Now our pup is almost 9 months old. During the days, except weekends, he is alone in the garden. He is still greeting enthusiastically all the people and animals he meets. Sometimes I think he could be a little bit more shy

Now during the winter he sleeps inside in our bedroom though when he was very young, during summer and autumn he slept outside. When on saturday morning we get up and he goes outside for peeing he afterwards goes to our neighbour when he is outside working. He then puts his paws on the fence and they seem to talk. This talking can take up to 20 minutes.

Currently we have quite some workers who come into our house for reconstruction. Often we are not at home. They say they receive always a warm friendly welcome from our dog. And he has not met them before. Two weeks ago an unknown dog went into the garden and walked out with one of his new bones. He just was signalling: let's play.

Now it is time to go for our evening walk of most of the times more than one hour spending with walking, training and playing. So I have to finish this reply.

I wish everybody all the best and lots of fun with his/her dog and perhaps I might meet some of you during the bonitation this April at Dobris.

best regards, Michiel
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Old 02-03-2006, 14:17   #28
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coming back to the initial argument:
anywone else have reasons NOT to give away puppies at 5 weeks? if yes, please explain
anyone have reasons NOT to give away puppies at 8 weeks? if yes, please explain

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Old 02-03-2006, 17:26   #29
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Safety
Law for Europe forbids to sell or to give a puppy has less than 8 weeks, the puppy has to have minimum 8 weeks with the passport, the vaccine, the tattoo or microchip.vermifuger.
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Old 06-03-2006, 13:32   #30
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OK,
considering the law as a law. (it is also a law allowing to hunt wolves in some countries, so not all laws are clever!!!)
How many of you, notwithstanding the fact that you follow the law and give your puppies ONLY after 8 weeks ,
THINK that it would be better to give the puppies at 5/6 weeks?

massimo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claude.Bordet
Safety
Law for Europe forbids to sell or to give a puppy has less than 8 weeks, the puppy has to have minimum 8 weeks with the passport, the vaccine, the tattoo or microchip.vermifuger.
Claude
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Old 06-03-2006, 13:49   #31
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Looking at our puppies, who are exactly 5 weeks old at the moment: 5 weeks is in my eyes definetly too early. 6 weeks is possible.

Ina
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Old 06-03-2006, 18:32   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claude.Bordet
Safety
Law for Europe forbids to sell or to give a puppy has less than 8 weeks, the puppy has to have minimum 8 weeks with the passport, the vaccine, the tattoo or microchip.vermifuger.
Claude
I do not know, what is law for Europe. However, as far as I know, in Czech republic has the breed of Czechoslovakian wolfdog exception from the common rules of 8 weeks of age and it is officially allowed to sell the CSV pups in early age. The reasons? Proper socialisation.
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Old 07-03-2006, 00:31   #33
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hello Mirka,

You are right. IN Czech Republicque there is an EXCEPTION for CW to give them away earlier then 8 weeks, but that is not common.

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Old 07-03-2006, 02:20   #34
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Hello Massimo,

Im my eyes 6 weeks is possible (But not for my country
That's why breeders here have to invest a lot in proper socialisation.)


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Old 07-03-2006, 11:01   #35
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And I don´t know breeder in the czech republic , who start sell the puppies from 8weeks. All breeders who I know start sell puppies from 6weeks after first vaccination. Maybe some puppies, who have not new owners in 6 weeks can be for sale from 7, 8, 9, 10 weeks and later.
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Old 07-03-2006, 12:37   #36
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Laws of the country are one thing, the greater good for the dog is the other. I got my puppy from Slovakia in her age of 6,5 week. I do not know, if they have any EXCEPTIONS, but I wanted the puppy young, the breeder agreed and so it happened. The pup was perfectly socialised by the breeder, the rest was done with me.
I did not notice any harm on the puppy, except that she is way too friendly with all people all the time!
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Old 11-03-2006, 21:56   #37
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Default age of puppies

Hello, everybody

I'm from the Dutch forum, hopefully can you understand my English.
Scientific research has proved (f.e. by David Appleby, John Bradshaw and Jolanda Pluijmakers, University of Bristol, Department of Clinical Veterinary Science (UK) and Animal Behaviour Clinic (NL)) that pups, in the age of 6-8 weeks, are openminded and accept changes more easily. In the weeks 8-12 they are much more reserved. So I think it's much more better to given away the pups at the age of 7-8 weeks. Because they learn many of there mother and the other pups and thats essential in there behaviour with other dogs but also to understand the corections that we (people) give.

When pups are born in seperate dogkennels and haven't seen many people and objects it is absolutely necessery that pups leave the mother at the age of 6 weeks (maybe it's also too late, in connection with kennelsyndrom). But when the breeder spent time with the pups and the pups see a lot of other people and objects then it's better to given away the pups by 7 weeks (because of the learning from mother and the other pups).
When a pup is born alone (no other pups) it's more difficult in behaviour with other dogs, then when it has brothers or sisters.

I have a dog who is shy for people, but his brother isn't (so far as I know). And I have socialisated my dog very well, ass I think.
So I think that the heredity of the wolf (the gens) is a grate part of it. So the shyness of a TsW is a part of the character of every seperate dog.

Greetings, Jolanda

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