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Breeding Information about breeding, selection, litters....

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Old 06-06-2005, 19:51   #1
Nebulosa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by of_Mercedes_Dream
the puppies are born the 21/4/05 !
They leaving next week or the week after.
the certainty would not be to keep the animals up to 3 months with the mother?
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Old 07-06-2005, 15:26   #2
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Nebulosa: Oh no! For CsV especially the early socialization phase is crucial. The breeder usually cannot socialize all pups as they would require for three months. And some don't even have conditions for that. I personally would take 6-8 weeks old puppy, if there are no special circumstances and even a 5 weeks old, if the mother is not good character (pups can learn to be shy from her). Csechoslovak wolfdogs are in good physical condition in 5 weeks already and can be taken from their mother, if they are cared after well.
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Old 07-06-2005, 18:50   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saschia
Nebulosa: Oh no! For CsV especially the early socialization phase is crucial. The breeder usually cannot socialize all pups as they would require for three months. And some don't even have conditions for that. I personally would take 6-8 weeks old puppy, if there are no special circumstances and even a 5 weeks old, if the mother is not good character (pups can learn to be shy from her). Csechoslovak wolfdogs are in good physical condition in 5 weeks already and can be taken from their mother, if they are cared after well.
The same thing valley for the CzW?
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Old 07-06-2005, 19:42   #4
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Hello,

There we go again,

In the countries of origine, it is possible to take a puppy from 5 weeks away from his mother and sell it to the new owner,

In the West Europe countries it isn't possible to do that. Between the 6. and the 9. week, the puppy's will be chipped or getting the tatoonumber.
Mostly around the 8th week.
If we sell a puppy before the chipping of the registrationnumbers, the whole litter can't get a pedigree, so we have to raise the puppy's till 8 weeks

And then it is to the breeder to socialize the puppy's as much as he can.

So don't say it again, that it is the best way to take a puppy from 5 weeks old. It not allways possible.

Letty
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Old 08-06-2005, 10:01   #5
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Letty: Yes, that might be a problem then, I didn't know about this. In Slovakia puppies get tatoos sooner than 5 weeks old and therefore there is no problem. But still 8 weeks is in the margin that I wrote, so its 2 months approximately and Nebulosa sugested 3 months. I personally would take such an old puppy ONLY in circumstances when I cannot take younger one and ONLY from a breeder I trust will socialize it really properly.
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Old 08-06-2005, 17:04   #6
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Saschia,

That is allso the problem and we (us) try to do our utmost to socialisating the pups. But you know the circumstances why we have to hold our pups so long.

Many greetings,

letty
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Old 08-06-2005, 17:22   #7
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Hi Letty, please don't take my previous reply as anything against you or anybody else. I know that all good breeders do socialize the puppies and I understand that they have to obey rules that are valid in their countries. It is just that it is in my opinion easier to properly socialize one puppy than the whole litter. So I will re-state my message:
It is best to take CsV puppy from it's mother as soon as it is possible (but not before 5 weeks of age) according to rules in the country and own possibilities and to choose those breeders who do socialize the puppies as it is very important in early age.

BTW I hope we will meet at the summer camp. We can discuss there all these rules that apply in different countries, I think it is interesting and also important to know about differences.

Greeting to you too!
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Old 08-06-2005, 18:42   #8
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Hey Saschia,

I don't see it in the way of attacking. And in the first reaction I hadn't noticed, that it was you. So therefore my reaction in the way of there we go again.

Of course, the pups by us are not so long by their mother till 8 weeks,
We try start to seperated them in the 4. week for a few ours and at least of 6 weeks, they don't see their mother not longer then e few minutes a day. Mostly the mother will not see them at all. So the socialisation in this time is our work.

We surtenly met eachother at the summercamp. We recervated a room by Maria, so, when nothing comes betwee, we will be there and then we can discuss about. I look forward to the summercamp to meet all of you again.

Many greetings,

letty
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Old 08-06-2005, 20:50   #9
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It really make no sense to pay so much attention to the age.... There are so many different points which also play huge role and influence future character of the puppy....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff
That is allso the problem and we (us) try to do our utmost to socialisating the pups. But you know the circumstances why we have to hold our pups so long.
I really do not unterstand why you are sorry that you have to keep the puppies till 8 weeks.... What is the problem?

We must be honest - picking up the puppies in the 5-6 week have his "historical" reason: almost all puppies where born and grow up in kennels. Most of them were born in winter and it means they saw people only during the feeding time. Can you imagine a breeder which spend hours outside to have good contact with pups and to socialize them? So there was a serious reason why people picked up their pups so early. And it apply also to similar breeders now. So in the listed cases (the breeder has no time to socialize puppies, the puppies stay for the whole time in kennel and have no contact with dogs or people, the mother has shy or agressive character - simply said: if there are not proper conditions for the puppy to develop right) than it is really good to take the puppy home as fast as possible.

About staying with the breeder longer (till 8-10 weeks) - we already have great "research field" in Germany where are more litters born and the puppies were picked up later. And there is good visible difference: if the breeder is good, if he socialize the puppies they have great character later. And there is really no problem that they were longer by the breeder (in the most cases it is even better). But if the breeder is bad, the puppies are kept in kennel without socialization and contact with dogs and people - such pups are later shy.... (of course future character depends also a lot from the future owner - but I mean here the "basic" character of the puppy)

So I personally would no buy puppy with 5 weeks. The reason is easy - such small puppies start at this age to play with other puppies, they start not only to comunicate with other but also to live together. They learn social behaviour, the learn how to live in a pack. And every week counts - older puppies are later much more social to other dogs, they have much better "bite control" (they do not bite with full power because they already learned from other puppies that it hurts). Especially pups living together with people learn very much - it will profit with better contact with people later.... But I write here about puppies which have CHANCE to learn (it means I write about socialized puppies and I assume that the mother (and father) have normal character - if they are agressive or shy the pupps staing longer by the breeder will learn they bad behaviour...). But on the other hand it is better not to buy puppy older than the 8-10 weeks. Because it is no problem if the breeder must socialize one-two puppies (in this case you can pickup the puppy later) but even the best breeder is not able to socialize whole litter. Puppy which will stay longer by the breeder will become shy, it will be harder to get contact with them.

So for me personally 5 weeks is too early and 10 weeks is the border time to get the puppy. About the right time everyone has to decide by himself because as I wrote - it depends on the breeder, on the parents of the puppy, the conditions where the puppy lives and the most important on our trust to the breeder (if you do not trust him, if you are not sure he will cary for the puppy right way - thake the puppy earlier).
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Old 08-06-2005, 21:02   #10
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Hello Margo,

I fully agree with you, it depends of the whole situation of socialisition, but i said sorry, because it looks like, that WE will keep the puppy's till 8 - 10 weeks, but we have too.

But in the little discussion, Sascha wrote, that is is hardly normal in the countries of origine, that the pups will picked up by the new owner in about the age of 5 weeks, and that hardly everybody there will have a puppy in this age for ............??????

Maybe I misunderstood it, but so it seems to me, and threfore it is not possible in Holland to have a puppy in this age.

Greetings,

Letty
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Old 08-06-2005, 21:32   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff
I fully agree with you, it depends of the whole situation of socialisition, but i said sorry, because it looks like, that WE will keep the puppy's till 8 - 10 weeks, but we have too.
Ahhh...OK, it's clear... But Slovakia and Czech Republic are an exception - as far I know it was made by the breed clubs that the kennel club in this countries agreed that breeders of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs can sell their puppies earlier. Because for example in CZ the breeding rule is "minimal age to pick up a puppy from the bitch is 50 days" - it means 7 weeks. So the same as in Holland...

We have the same by us - I must make the litter inspection in my kennel club and show the committee whole litter when the puppys are 6.5-7 weeks old. First after it they can go to new homes...
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Old 08-06-2005, 23:09   #12
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Hello Margo,

So, it's also clear to me now, that except Czech Republique and Slowakia call sell the puppy's earlier, but they don't know the rules by us. Some things are very doubtfull and it seems, that therefore there is a lot of miscommunication in some situations and outsiders maybe think, that only in the West europian countries there are such rules and in the countries of origine there are more possibilities to get a puppy.

Letty
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Old 28-02-2006, 13:38   #13
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Default age of puppies

I would like to ask those who have experience, in particular Margo, according to them when is the right time to give new puppies to owners.
Wolfdog Puppies of course!!
how many days? are 60 days to much? are 40 days to little?

Thank you for your comments.
Of course if you have more experience it would be better!!
massimo
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Old 28-02-2006, 13:40   #14
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Default age of puppies

Sorry... my signature is in italian. It means literally:

A Healthy and Bonitated WD for everyone!
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Old 28-02-2006, 14:58   #15
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Hello Massimo,
sorry about my english . I sell puppies, when they are 42days old, it is after first vaccination. Some breeders sell puppies from 5 weeks, without vaccination . But sometimes I have puppies in the kennel longer time. For example now: I have two puppies 2,5 months old. But the puppies have perfect socialisation. They go every day for a walk on the leash. To the streets. They can see all in the city. I think, it is not problem for them. But in the other kennels the puppies can be on the garden, only. They don´t see strange people, other dogs, cars,... I think, it is problem of big kennels, for example in the Italy . theese puppies will be shy in the future. There is age - two months problem. Hanka ( kennel od Uhoste)
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Old 28-02-2006, 16:49   #16
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Thank you!!
my main point is to know reasons for giving dogs before 60 days, just as you described.
This is the main thing I want to know because I want to put them in Italian forum for those who prefer giving puppies more than 50 days minimum.
No comment about shyness.
I have an Italian dog and a hungarian dog, but neither of them are shy....ABSOLUTELY!!!

Additionally I can add that lately Italian dogs are improving really so much as character.
Please do not judge on the small amount of dogs you see.
massimo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka
Hello Massimo,
sorry about my english . I sell puppies, when they are 42days old, it is after first vaccination. Some breeders sell puppies from 5 weeks, without vaccination . But sometimes I have puppies in the kennel longer time. For example now: I have two puppies 2,5 months old. But the puppies have perfect socialisation. They go every day for a walk on the leash. To the streets. They can see all in the city. I think, it is not problem for them. But in the other kennels the puppies can be on the garden, only. They don´t see strange people, other dogs, cars,... I think, it is problem of big kennels, for example in the Italy . theese puppies will be shy in the future. There is age - two months problem. Hanka ( kennel od Uhoste)
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Old 28-02-2006, 18:30   #17
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Hi Massimo,

to answer your question, I sold my pups in the age between 6 and 7 weeks. Which is as Hanka says, after the first vaccination. One pup stayed with us till his 8,5 weeks, because his owner could not come earlier. This puppy was therefore thoroughly socialised by me, we took him on leash everywhere, to see other dogs, people etc.
Socialising pups is very important, as Hanka mentions. It is better to give the pups to the new families earlier, so that the pups get to see new people and places etc. in the important age (between 6 and 12 weeks). If you manage to socialise the pups well enough at your place, then it is not a problem, if they go in 8 weeks, for example.
But the sooner, the better for them.

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Old 28-02-2006, 20:06   #18
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Hello Massimmo,

I think that it is very different in which country you live.

I know in Czech Republique and Slovakia it is normal, that the puppys go to the new owners in the age of 4 - 5 weeks old.


Here in Holland = Netherlands, it is normal, that the puppys go in the age of 8 - 9 weeks.

The person, that comes to chip the puppys, comes at our place at about 8 weeks, because the kennelclub find, that puppys which go to the new owners earlier then 8 weeks, is a crime.

So, it depends of a lot of things, and the differnet countries,

Greetings,

Letty
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Old 28-02-2006, 20:55   #19
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I don´t know breeders, who sell puppies in the 4-5 weeks . I am from czech republic. The selling in 5 weeks is exception, normal is 6 weeks. who do it? write me, please. Hanka
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Old 01-03-2006, 01:26   #20
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I did buy a puppy with 6 weeks in CZ rep (and with 8 weeks she was going on hollidays with us to Greece )
I have contact with several breeders in CZ who all are selling pups with 6 weeks. So just like Hanka I am also curious who are the breeders who are selling with 4/5 weeks. And more what are their reasons for this.

In Holland this is not possible; because chipper comes between 7 and 8 weeks. So our pups are leaving with 8 weeks.

Also a lot of vets in Holland are vaccinating first time with 7 weeks.

Inspite of this, I take the risc to take puppy's (TsW and an other breed) also outside from age of 5/6 weeks (car, school, shops, work, market, aso) First in group with mother, then without mother in group, and then individual. So for example every pup was before 7 weeks individual in a shoppingcart

In the past in Holland also puppy's were going to new owners with 6 weeks (in times my father and grandfather were breeders ).
But I agree with Letty that the opinion in of the Dutch kennelclub/organisation is that 8 weeks is the earliest age to go to a new owner. (The common thought in Holland is that earlier going to a new owner is only a fiancial idea of "breadbreeders")

But personal I don't agree with this!
Socialisation (and a lot of personal attention) is in my point of view from 5/6 weeks very important voor every breed! And especial for wolfdogs!!
This natural breed understands very good all "the dog(wolf) language, behaviour and signals" but they need in our community also to learn human language, community rules and their behaviour

And in my opinion it is also importent, to "socialise" puppy's in house before they go outside.
From the first weeks we ask lot of visistors (of all ages) to hugg puppy's and to play with them. (our pups are living the whole time in our living room) We also get them used to several optical and sound effects and normal daily human activity's (vacuum cleaner, washing machine aso)

When you are disable in a country to sell puppy's in a young age, you can do a lot to solve this problems.
But I hope everybody realises also, that this is of course a lot of work for a breeder
(But no mis understanding; I like to do this!)

greetings,
Mijke
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