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Old 10-06-2005, 17:33   #21
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Hello Patrick,

as a breeder and enthusiast of CSWs I am interested in the future of this breed(that means character,health,exterieur ec.)
So may I ask the following questions :

1.Why did you make this certain pairing ?

2. Why did you breed with two not X-rayed dogs and didn't wait until the next heat ?

3.Do you know the HD-status of for example the decendants of Ysfennir's grandfather ?

4.What is the reason you will take these certain stud dogs for your next two anticepated pairings with Akela ?

5.What is your opinion of the future of CSWs in your country ?

Don't misunderstand me, but these questions occured after I read the previous discussion.

Best regards,

Michael
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Old 10-06-2005, 20:53   #22
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Its very interesting questions from Michael. Am curious about the answers. Breeding in the right sense must have same target. Mostly it means improvement of race. For me is very interesting, which target Patrick have with this pair.
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Old 11-06-2005, 00:41   #23
of_Mercedes_Dream
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Hello,
It seems that I'm in the court, but no problem I'll answer.
These answers are mine, other people in Belgium and other countries maybe will think differently. Everybody is free in thinking.

1/ Ysfenrir was not the original stud dog I had in mind for. Normally it must have been Kavak CW, my oldest male. But 1 day before he had to stud, he escaped and a car on the highway killed him. So suddenly I had to look for another stud dog. In Belgium there are not much stud dogs (3or 4), but to look for in other countries there was not enough time to call those people and arrange everything. Those owners also work. I couldn't also do it because I couldn't except the death of Kavak. I was like a dead body. So at that moment the other breeder in Belgium proposed his dog Ysfenrir. I agreed Ysfnerir because:
a/ I saw him many many times with Vandamme and he pleased me
b/ he had some good show results
c/ he is also very very social. Just like Akela. So in my opinion this pairing can have very social puppies. This is important I think, no ? Last year some people from the origin countries have written here on this forum that the western csw are too shy! With this pairing I want to prove the opposit.

2/ I don't have Akela from puppie and she had her first heat in october last year. Than it was too early for her and I expected her next heat in +/- october this year. So I had enough time for the X ray. Suddenly Akela was in heat in february! My vet told me that the narcose for the Xray was not the ideal moment now. So I diceded to cover her without HD results. Why? In her pedigree there is not much HD (A and B).
And Akela jumps without problems over 2 meter high fence. (I know a HD dog with strong muscles can do it also but ...) And when Akela is sitting, it's always a nice, straight sitting. This is perhaps not scientificly but another Belgian vet,specialised in HD, had told me that. And indeed she is wright because I had-have 2 german sheppard with very high HD (from origin country!) and they were always sitting like a puppy, with almost 1 leg onder their back.

3/For Ysfenrir you are wright. In the 3 or 4 generation there could have been HD. Some people told me but I could not check it. (not marked) But who breed with those dogs? Not me.
It wil be the last time I take a stud dog without HD results.
Can you tell me if an HD B in Belgium is the same as an HD B in the origin countries or spain or Italy? NO, I have the prove here at home that it isn't. I don't give any details more on that. It's private.

4/Those stud dogs have both an HD A !!
Edy Krivotklasky has covered the second time my Branca, but without succes. (Brancas fault) So I had the opportunity to learn this dog for 3 weeks. It's also a social dog with hy caracter. (his picture with Branca by gallery breeders)
Nexus Titan van Rijneckerhof, I've seen him and learned him lest year at the first meeting in Belgium. From that moment I keeped contact with the owner. He is one of the first CSW in our countries with official "working dog" certificate!
Number 5 I'll answer tomorrow.
greatings
Patrick
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Old 11-06-2005, 11:24   #24
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Hi Patrick,

you are n o t in the court and if you don`t want to answer it will be ok. But you yourself wrote:" here in Belgium we have to learn a lot about CzW" - so why don`t you want the help of Margo, Pavel, Hanka, Michael and Letty who are breeders and want to help you?

You know I`ve been very sad about Kavaks death because his sister Koira died the same way. But - as far as I know - Kavak was no stud dog, had had HD C (1/2) and seemed to be very shy (only living with huskies, afraid of people and cars).

I´m only a layman but from this point of view it seems to be better that Akela and Kavak didn`t get "married".

Best regards
Angelika
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Old 12-06-2005, 00:30   #25
of_Mercedes_Dream
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hello,
ofcourse they can help. I 've send many emails to some breeders for asking something. Ask Letty or Mirka or Margo or ...

Did you saw Kavak? That he had living with huskies I knew. I don't want to tell more about Kavak. Still now it's hard for me.

If you were well informed you should have know that I'm trying to get an official bonitation into Belgium. I have ask Margo and Letty some names and emails from judges of the original countries. It's not so easy to do organise it.

Aswer on question 5:
This is my personal meaning, not from other breeders or belgian owners.
I want that my puppies becomes good socialised dogs! Not shy. Intelligent "sheppards" with wolves outside.
All the dogs must be in the first place home dogs, playing with kids, sitting near table,looking TV,....
In second place for those owners who want it : a working dog. I'm a part-time gardien with dog. Before it was with my german sheppard but now I use my Branca or Heron. (see picture in gallery) They work complete different as a german or malinois but I feel myself safe at work. In Belgium a private guardien dog may not attack in free. He only may bite in case of agressivity.
In the 3 place the csw must be a nice looking dog, more or less like the standard.

Now I have a question. Will you ask the same questions to all breeders of not x rayed dogs? Some of them are very quitly here on this forum.

So here I stop with answering. I put my energy in my puppies.

greatings
Patrick
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Old 12-06-2005, 03:34   #26
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I would like to thank all of you for your replies to my question but I do feel that some of you have personally attacked this breeder. I know some of you would like to ask questions but must understand that in different countries, there are different rules. There are different standards and different rules in each country but what it all comes down to is the love that each breeder shows to his dog and puppies. By my research and by talking to Patrick, and other breeders, his heart is in his dogs. His care and devotion to these dogs is what makes them EXCELLENT CVW dogs.
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Old 12-06-2005, 17:22   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat
I would like to thank all of you for your replies to my question but I do feel that some of you have personally attacked this breeder. I know some of you would like to ask questions but must understand that in different countries, there are different rules. There are different standards and different rules in each country
I don´t think anybody intended to attack the breeder personally. Though I don´t think it is a good idea to ask a question like yours in an open forum (did you ask for a honest or a polite answer?) and didn´t agree with Michael´s posting (that wasn´t meant as an attack).The reason for the reactions is the difficult breeding situation at the moment. I am very sure that Patrick really loves the breed and his dogs and wants to do the best for both so I want to make sure that what I write now is meant in generally not personally.
There may be different breeding rules in countries but there is only ONE standard for a breed and especially all breeding dogs should follow this standard as good as possible. The dogs should look like a European wolf, that means they should have wolflike head shapes and masks, small ears, light eyes, close lips without hanging corners of the underlip, a short straight tail, the body should not be build heavily, the thorax should be to broad and deep and the legs shouldn´t be to short in relation to the body. Unluckily most common judges (and even some breeders) especially the ones outside the countries of origin don´t really know what a wolfdog should look like. We have several champions at the moment with severe exterieur mistakes, some of them wouldn´t even be allowed to breed in the countries of origin. Very many dogs look like grey German Shepherds. If we all want to breed CVW and not German wolfdogs or Begian wolfdogs or Dutch wolfdogs we have to be very aware of the problem that show results in CACIB shows and Championtitels don´t mean anything at all as long as the judge wasn´t a specialised one for this breed. You have to know the breed very well if you want to be able to recognise a good stud dog. You can´t get to know the breed well enough for this if you haven´t seen a lot of dogs in the countries of origin or at least being judged by a specialised judge. So one of the possibilities to be a little bit sure of the quality of a dog is the Bonitation (even though there are some P1 dogs I wouldn´t use for breeding) The bonitation code additionally gives you the possibility to look for exterieur mistakes that don´t fit with your dog, no dog is perfect.
I absolutely agree that the charakter of the dog is one of the most important things and we luckily nowadays have a lot of dogs with a good charakter. Also some dogs have problems in the Bonitation charakter test because they are not trained or socialised well enough, that doesn´t mean they have a genetic problem which it they will give to there offspring. But even if a good charakter is one of the most important thing to look for it isn´t the only one.

A genetic problem that is very often given to the offspring is HD, and even HD A dogs can have the genes for bad hips, one little possibility to check is to look for the HD degree of the different generations. There are HD lines in this breed that shouldn´t been combined with other HD lines and the following generations should be supervised very intensly. wolfdog.org gives you the possibility to check several generations. The HD problem is getting worse at the moment and we should be very aware of that.

For breeders outside of the original countries it is not that easy to get to special dog shows or to bonitations. We have had and still have some problems here in Germany and I can imagine how difficult it is in Belgium with even less breeders. Most breeders out of countries like ours have to travel a lot to get the right breeding mates or to go to club shows or bonitations. That is the reason why the German Club decided to only invite specialised judges out of the countries of origin for the Club shows and why we asked them to do a bonitation together with each Club show each year. The next ones will be at the 24 + 25th of september near Heidelberg, that is not that far away from Belgium or the Netherlands or Luxemburg as the ones in other countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat
but what it all comes down to is the love that each breeder shows to his dog and puppies. By my research and by talking to Patrick, and other breeders, his heart is in his dogs. His care and devotion to these dogs is what makes them EXCELLENT CVW dogs.
I am sure you are right but excellent in the breeding point of view doesn´t only mean well cared for and good socialised but it means a dog that is in every point of view better than most of the breed, that is something totally different.

Regards Ina
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Old 12-06-2005, 17:48   #28
of_Mercedes_Dream
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Hello,
please can you give more detail about the bonitation in Germany?
Who's the judge, were can I make a reservation, are there hotels, caravans, .. to pass the night.
Will there be also an youth presentation?
I'm very interested.
Greatings
Patrick
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Old 12-06-2005, 18:40   #29
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Hello Patrick,

the judge of the special club show (24.9.05)will be Oscar Dora from Slowakia. He will also do the Bonitation and youth Bonitation (25.9.). Who will join him with the Bonitation (you normally don´t only have one judge for it) we don´t know at the moment but it won´t be a problem. We are planing a 40 km Endurance test the week before during the camp. You will find everything on this site the next days. For the camp you can contact falco (Michael Daum) for the show and bonitation citywolf (Adi Koal) or send a PN to us we will forward it. Normally there are a lot of dogs from several countries on the German Club Shows.

Greetings Ina
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Old 12-06-2005, 18:43   #30
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I´ve just seen it´s allready on this site under coming events.

Regards Ina
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Old 13-06-2005, 02:44   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by of_Mercedes_Dream
It wil be the last time I take a stud dog without HD results
so I think a potential buyer can wait till next litter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by of_Mercedes_Dream
Can you tell me if an HD B in Belgium is the same as an HD B in the origin countries or spain or Italy? NO, I have the prove here at home that it isn't. I don't give any details more on that. It's private.
There are international and clear rules about evaluating HD , I can't understand why everybody say that in their country is so harder than in other countries!

I know that the only country where these rules are not exactly respected is Czech Republic, where an HD B could be, for strange reasons, HD C or even HD D!
Is this right ?
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Old 13-06-2005, 20:16   #32
michaelundinaeichhorn
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Hello Patrick,

as my wife already said,it wasn't meant as a personal attack.
But I still don't agree with your breeding policy.
Breeding also means improving.At least the attempt.
Of course it is easy to take the stud dog "round the corner" or even your own.
That saves a lot of time ,money and risk.
Breeders for example, who always use their own stud dogs for their bitches (I mean the same or very similar pairings several times) are no breeders but producers.
The gene pool of this breed is still far too small to do things like that.
We have to think in international dimensions,because genes don't stop at borders and our dogs are spread all over Europe and even the world.
That brings us back to the point that it's sometimes necessary to travel hundrets or thousands of kilometres to find a certain stud dog.
If a breeder is not willing or able to do that, please don't breed.
The same with HD-regulations in the different countries,if there aren't any,every breeder got to control himself.If not,please don't breed.
Anyway,only care and devotion (I'm sorry Kat !) doesn't make an excellent CSW.
If you come to Germany in September we maybe could talk about things like that with a nice German or Belgian beer.

Regards,

Michael
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Old 13-06-2005, 23:00   #33
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Sorry...
I know that he is difficult.... but find that only dogs with HD-A for less it could reproduce, this in any breed.
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