Czech Mutara-Gate: WHO IS ARMIN?

z Peronówki · 26-09-2004, 23:53

OK, as you for sure already read the Czech breeding comittee have huge problems to find out the true about Armin.

So again - we have three possibilities. Here are some hints for you:

1)Monika Soukupova (breeding comittee):
Armin is German Shepherd Dog.
Mother: Gerda z PS. Father also GSD from kennel "z Pohranicni straze" in Libejovice.

2) Karel Hartl (breeding comittee):
Armin is a CzW.
Karel Hartl wrote on the paper for registering the Mutara litter: "Armin - Czechoslovakian Wolfdog without pedigree". It is official paper send to CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) which CMKU received on 23.07.2002. The paper is signed by the breeder of the Mutaras - Mrs. Nada Sebkova (breeding comittee). It was the paper which was used to put the mixes into the breed book of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (ok, into "Help registry")

3) Frantisek Hrach (owner of Armin):
Armin is an Mix.
In one of the articles about Armin written for the Czech dog magazine "Pes" ( no. 10/98 ) his owner - F. Hrach writes:
Czech:
"Hned od zaèátku jsem øíkal, ¾e ¹tìnì má hlavu ¹ir¹í, krat¹í ucho,¹ir¹í hrudníèek, trochu jiné oèi, ¹ikmìj¹í. Jedni hádali na køí¾ence, ¾e tam musel být ¹pic, druzí hasky,já pøipou¹tìl podle hrudníku malamuta. Pravda se ukázala a¾ kdy¾ se pøijela podívat dcera majitele fenky-matky ¹tìnìte. Tvrdila, ¾e nìkdy pøed lety tam mìli psa, co nakryl matku ¹tìnìte, køí¾ence z Libìjovic, kde se dìlaly pokusy s èsv".
English:
"I said from the beginning, that the puppy has wider head, shorter ears, broader chest, a little bit different eyes, more slanting. Some people said it is a mix, that there is a Spitz in it, another said a Husky. I thought considering the chest it was [a mix of] Malamute. The true appeared when the daughter of the owner of mather of the puppy came with visit. She told, that many years ago they had a dog, which covered mother of the puppy. He was an mix from Libejovice where the experiments with CzW took place".
So simply said he has no idea about origin of Armin.

As you see the breeding comitte can not decide what Armin really is. Please help them - please look on the photo of Armin and take part in the votting pool. Choose the right answer....

raywwf · 27-09-2004, 09:24

Is this the only picture of Armin?

Joyce

z Peronówki · 27-09-2004, 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by raywwf

Is this the only picture of Armin?

No - here you can find more:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/d5536.html

And take also a look on this page:
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto3.htm
You can find here many photos of Armin where is better to see that he has nothing to do with CzW or GSD....

Best examples:
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto0208.jpg
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto0207.jpg
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto0217.jpg

raywwf · 27-09-2004, 10:35

Thanks Margo.

Joyce

fenris · 27-09-2004, 19:59

Very nice dog indeed. Sure this will be a valuable addition to the breed.
Looks like old working-line shepherd. Not a show-dog. Very interesting. 4th generation progeny after him will not harm the conformation of the breed. And much better than a show-line GSD. Much stronger backline and structure than the common GSD.

fenris

z Peronówki · 27-09-2004, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Sure this will be a valuable addition to the breed.

Sorry fenris, but it is not good place for jokes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

Looks like old working-line shepherd.

Have you ever saw a old working-line shepherd? I 'm sure - NOT...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenris

4th generation progeny after him will not harm the conformation of the breed. And much better than a show-line GSD. Much stronger backline and structure than the common GSD.

...but with HD-problems by his offsprings. Congratulation - he is a real help for our breed.

And if we take into consideration that Czech CzW lines still have huge problems with the faults typical for German Shepherd Dogs (what even Hartl wanted to change) after the Czech Breeding Comittee will use Armin they also can change the name of his offsprings from "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" to "Czech Shepherd".

Czech Shepherd Dog

....we can already start to write an breed standard for them....

Pavel · 27-09-2004, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

And if we take into consideration that Czech CzW lines still have huge problems with the faults typical for German Shepherd Dogs (what even Hartl wanted to change) after the Czech Breeding Comittee will use Armin they also can change the name of his offsprings from "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" to "Czech Shepherd".

Margo forget to write, that this creature on picture above get just on 2 Club shows a valuaton "very good" (VERY GOOD CONFORMITY WITH CSW STANDARD !!!). In FCI show rules is exactly declarate, which dog can get "very good" :
"... VERY GOOD may only awarded to a dog which possesses the typical features of its breed and which has well-balanced proportions and is in correct condition. A few minor faults may be tolerated, but none of a morphological nature. This award can only be granted to a dog which shows class...".
See the picture above and you can see, how "typical" CsW Audrey Lupo is ...

And who were the judges, who valuate so high Audrey Lupo ? No amateurs or beginners - Jindrich Jedlicka (CsW breed Seda eminence) and Monika Soukupova (CsW breed z Molu Es) both members of breeding committee of CZ Club.

elohimmel · 04-10-2004, 20:52

I don't know WHICH kind of breed is Armin.

Anyway HE IS AWFUL

Lupina is better, still too white and too much far from CWD.
And I ignore all about her character and her healthyness.
But she is nice. I love wolves.

Still I would like CWD with the character that we know, so who knows if this new wolf-blood will keep it or destroy it...

But Armin is really BAD, rough and out of CWD proportions , and you say even unhealthy...

U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E.......

I saw soo many mix in state kennels that were really better than this, but soooo many....

bleah :P

z Peronówki · 05-10-2004, 12:03

Quote:

Anyway HE IS AWFUL

Lupina is better, still too white and too much far from CWD.
And I ignore all about her character and her healthyness.
But she is nice. I love wolves.

I like wolves but also dogs...

And if we use this criteria than I like both: Armin and Lupina...

For sure the owner loves them and they are nice companion for him...

.....but....

....if we talk about them in the context of CzWs than Lupina and Armin are untypical and 'awful' and too far from CzW...

fenris · 05-10-2004, 18:12

Armin isnt that different from the original shepherds used in this breed?
The "army-shepherds" used are at least very different from the show-shepherds seen on most exhibitions. Shorter legs, smaller, compact, strong and dynamic.

fenris

FreierFranke · 05-10-2004, 22:43

Hello everybody,
that is not the CzW which I wants. I have one CZW of these. Between my dog and Armin a difference is such as day and night. If this is the way of the breed, then I will buy a guinea pig!

In serious: This breed is a verry dangerous way!

I hope I see you somewhere with nice dogs............

Greetings
Markus and "Bragi von der Wolfsschleife"

Jeffrey · 06-10-2004, 10:28

Hello everybody,

I understand that we need some breeding guidelines and that we dont want HD dogs in our lines. Bud when I read the discussions and what everybody has to say about he dogs I'm asking myself wether people are fighting for the breed or for their ego. And to say that a dog is awfull by its picture.............................

Once again these kind of discussions don't belong on a public forum and should be discussed with the officials in private. All of these bullshit statements about who is doing what and look at the results again we tell that this isnt good and that is dangerous and so on and so forth. Try to imagine what people will think when they are not familiar with the breed and people.

Kind regards,
A dog lover,

Jeffrey

FreierFranke · 06-10-2004, 17:25

Hello Jeffrey,
here I will tell you what I mean what is dangerous: In Germany the police has shot down an wolf. They thought he was a mix between dog and wolf. Everybody has know that was a wolf, but not the police.
I wrote a letter to the “State of Minesterium for national security”

Here is an excerpt from the answer:
“This dog was an bastard.It was a breed between wolf and dog, often Husky, also a hybrid.These where breed in the Czechoslowakian Republik and there are verry considered biting and agressiv.”

As I already said, this is an official answer to a wolf-firing from a German Minesterium. So I think this breed is dangerous.

It that what you want? Whithout permission of the FCI?.

When someone will breeding a new line, he can propose this by the FCI. But only whith German shepherd and European Wolf!!!!!!!

….by the way: Armin dont look like a German shepherd or a Czechoslowakian Wolfdog. Look the voting!

Please excuse my englisch. It is not so good.

Kind regards

Markus

ligerwolve · 24-10-2004, 06:07

Hello everyone, Just thought I would add my thoughts aswell. This animal doesnt look like a CW to me or a Czech Shepherd. I own one of these and they look nothing alike. It does look like some kind of hybrid though. I dont think the animal should be used for breeding. Who knows what kinds of things its inherited.

slarman · 05-01-2005, 03:14

Armin looks more wolf than dog and more like a wolf/Siberian Laika than GSD or even Husky cross.
Simon

Mirkawolf · 05-01-2005, 17:04

Simon,

I can´t help but have you ever seen a real wolf? Armin looks as much as wolf as a poodle does! I know Armin personally, saw him few times and I can assure you, it is normal non pedigree German shepherd of unknown origin.

Mirka

belgshep · 05-01-2005, 17:55

Mirka,
Having only seen the pictures of Armin,I would say that he is as you say but would think there may be something else in him as well as GSD but it is definately not wolf,everything about him is wrong to contain wolf DNA in the last 100 years.
Paul

slarman · 07-01-2005, 05:07

Mirka,
Yes I have a wolf,in Alaska and at zoo's.I have also owned and bred GSD's,maybe in Europe a GSD looks different to thse we have in Australia,cos to me he is not purebred anything but a big bulky cross breed of something.
Simon

Wolfwoman · 07-01-2005, 11:06

first: HE IS NOT AWFUL!!!!

every creature has its own charm!!! how can you dare to say something similar!????

second: i live since i'm on this world, together with German shepherds, siberian huskies and a quite long time with Vlcaks. I'M QUITE SURE THERE'S NO HUSKY IN IT!

i do think, that Armin is a mix .. and i think a very gorgeous looking mix!

third: it does no matter either! as long as he is treated well and has his beloved family around him ..

so long
wolfwoman

belgshep · 07-01-2005, 20:33

Wolfwoman,
I totally agree with you.
Paul

View Poll Results: WHO IS ARMIN?
Armin is German Shepherd Dog	7	14.00%
Armin is Czechoslovakian Wolfdog	2	4.00%
Armin is a Mix	41	82.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

26-09-2004, 23:53	#1
z Peronówki VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Późna Posts: 6,995	Czech Mutara-Gate: WHO IS ARMIN? OK, as you for sure already read the Czech breeding comittee have huge problems to find out the true about Armin. So again - we have three possibilities. Here are some hints for you: 1)Monika Soukupova (breeding comittee): Armin is German Shepherd Dog. Mother: Gerda z PS. Father also GSD from kennel "z Pohranicni straze" in Libejovice. 2) Karel Hartl (breeding comittee): Armin is a CzW. Karel Hartl wrote on the paper for registering the Mutara litter: "Armin - Czechoslovakian Wolfdog without pedigree". It is official paper send to CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) which CMKU received on 23.07.2002. The paper is signed by the breeder of the Mutaras - Mrs. Nada Sebkova (breeding comittee). It was the paper which was used to put the mixes into the breed book of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (ok, into "Help registry") 3) Frantisek Hrach (owner of Armin): Armin is an Mix. In one of the articles about Armin written for the Czech dog magazine "Pes" ( no. 10/98 ) his owner - F. Hrach writes: Czech: "Hned od zaèátku jsem øíkal, ¾e ¹tìnì má hlavu ¹ir¹í, krat¹í ucho,¹ir¹í hrudníèek, trochu jiné oèi, ¹ikmìj¹í. Jedni hádali na køí¾ence, ¾e tam musel být ¹pic, druzí hasky,já pøipou¹tìl podle hrudníku malamuta. Pravda se ukázala a¾ kdy¾ se pøijela podívat dcera majitele fenky-matky ¹tìnìte. Tvrdila, ¾e nìkdy pøed lety tam mìli psa, co nakryl matku ¹tìnìte, køí¾ence z Libìjovic, kde se dìlaly pokusy s èsv". English: "I said from the beginning, that the puppy has wider head, shorter ears, broader chest, a little bit different eyes, more slanting. Some people said it is a mix, that there is a Spitz in it, another said a Husky. I thought considering the chest it was [a mix of] Malamute. The true appeared when the daughter of the owner of mather of the puppy came with visit. She told, that many years ago they had a dog, which covered mother of the puppy. He was an mix from Libejovice where the experiments with CzW took place". So simply said he has no idea about origin of Armin. As you see the breeding comitte can not decide what Armin really is. Please help them - please look on the photo of Armin and take part in the votting pool. Choose the right answer.... __________________ . 'Z PERONÓWKI' FACEBOOK GROUP

04-10-2004, 20:52	#8
elohimmel Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 58	Armin.... I don't know WHICH kind of breed is Armin. Anyway HE IS AWFUL Lupina is better, still too white and too much far from CWD. And I ignore all about her character and her healthyness. But she is nice. I love wolves. Still I would like CWD with the character that we know, so who knows if this new wolf-blood will keep it or destroy it... But Armin is really BAD, rough and out of CWD proportions , and you say even unhealthy... U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E....... I saw soo many mix in state kennels that were really better than this, but soooo many.... bleah :P

05-10-2004, 22:43	#11
FreierFranke Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 95182 bei Hof/Saale Posts: 648	Hello everybody, that is not the CzW which I wants. I have one CZW of these. Between my dog and Armin a difference is such as day and night. If this is the way of the breed, then I will buy a guinea pig! In serious: This breed is a verry dangerous way! I hope I see you somewhere with nice dogs............ Greetings Markus and "Bragi von der Wolfsschleife" __________________ Bei allem immer viel Spaß wünschen: Der Franke mit der besten Freundin von allen und Bragi, Sohn Odins und dessen Gemahlin Freya und dessen Tochter Ayla :-)

06-10-2004, 10:28	#12
Jeffrey Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 10	Once again Hello everybody, I understand that we need some breeding guidelines and that we dont want HD dogs in our lines. Bud when I read the discussions and what everybody has to say about he dogs I'm asking myself wether people are fighting for the breed or for their ego. And to say that a dog is awfull by its picture............................. Once again these kind of discussions don't belong on a public forum and should be discussed with the officials in private. All of these bullshit statements about who is doing what and look at the results again we tell that this isnt good and that is dangerous and so on and so forth. Try to imagine what people will think when they are not familiar with the breed and people. Kind regards, A dog lover, Jeffrey

27-09-2004, 09:24	#2
raywwf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 38	Is this the only picture of Armin? Joyce

27-09-2004, 10:35	#4
raywwf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 38	Thanks Margo. Joyce

27-09-2004, 19:59	#5
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	Very nice dog indeed. Sure this will be a valuable addition to the breed. Looks like old working-line shepherd. Not a show-dog. Very interesting. 4th generation progeny after him will not harm the conformation of the breed. And much better than a show-line GSD. Much stronger backline and structure than the common GSD. fenris

05-10-2004, 18:12	#10
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	Armin isnt that different from the original shepherds used in this breed? The "army-shepherds" used are at least very different from the show-shepherds seen on most exhibitions. Shorter legs, smaller, compact, strong and dynamic. fenris

06-10-2004, 17:25	#13
FreierFranke Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 95182 bei Hof/Saale Posts: 648	Hello Jeffrey, here I will tell you what I mean what is dangerous: In Germany the police has shot down an wolf. They thought he was a mix between dog and wolf. Everybody has know that was a wolf, but not the police. I wrote a letter to the “State of Minesterium for national security” Here is an excerpt from the answer: “This dog was an bastard.It was a breed between wolf and dog, often Husky, also a hybrid.These where breed in the Czechoslowakian Republik and there are verry considered biting and agressiv.” As I already said, this is an official answer to a wolf-firing from a German Minesterium. So I think this breed is dangerous. It that what you want? Whithout permission of the FCI?. When someone will breeding a new line, he can propose this by the FCI. But only whith German shepherd and European Wolf!!!!!!! ….by the way: Armin dont look like a German shepherd or a Czechoslowakian Wolfdog. Look the voting! Please excuse my englisch. It is not so good. Kind regards Markus __________________ Bei allem immer viel Spaß wünschen: Der Franke mit der besten Freundin von allen und Bragi, Sohn Odins und dessen Gemahlin Freya und dessen Tochter Ayla :-)

24-10-2004, 06:07	#14
ligerwolve Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 52	Hello everyone, Just thought I would add my thoughts aswell. This animal doesnt look like a CW to me or a Czech Shepherd. I own one of these and they look nothing alike. It does look like some kind of hybrid though. I dont think the animal should be used for breeding. Who knows what kinds of things its inherited.

05-01-2005, 03:14	#15
slarman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 47	Armin looks more wolf than dog and more like a wolf/Siberian Laika than GSD or even Husky cross. Simon

05-01-2005, 17:04	#16
Mirkawolf Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 556	Simon, I can´t help but have you ever seen a real wolf? Armin looks as much as wolf as a poodle does! I know Armin personally, saw him few times and I can assure you, it is normal non pedigree German shepherd of unknown origin. Mirka

05-01-2005, 17:55	#17
belgshep Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 26	Mirka, Having only seen the pictures of Armin,I would say that he is as you say but would think there may be something else in him as well as GSD but it is definately not wolf,everything about him is wrong to contain wolf DNA in the last 100 years. Paul

07-01-2005, 05:07	#18
slarman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 47	Mirka, Yes I have a wolf,in Alaska and at zoo's.I have also owned and bred GSD's,maybe in Europe a GSD looks different to thse we have in Australia,cos to me he is not purebred anything but a big bulky cross breed of something. Simon

07-01-2005, 11:06	#19
Wolfwoman Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bonn Posts: 101	hmm ... first: HE IS NOT AWFUL!!!! every creature has its own charm!!! how can you dare to say something similar!???? second: i live since i'm on this world, together with German shepherds, siberian huskies and a quite long time with Vlcaks. I'M QUITE SURE THERE'S NO HUSKY IN IT! i do think, that Armin is a mix .. and i think a very gorgeous looking mix! third: it does no matter either! as long as he is treated well and has his beloved family around him .. so long wolfwoman

07-01-2005, 20:33	#20
belgshep Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 26	Wolfwoman, I totally agree with you. Paul

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