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Old 17-09-2004, 11:32   #41
fenris
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To Pavel:
You think HD is the cause of the mutara crossings. I dont know if the hight incidence of HD is a x-ray phenomenon, or if an increasing number of CsW really suffer functional handicaps. If the latter is the case I understand the wish to add new blood. But due to your experience and also scientific investigation X ray results of HD are often false positive. If so this crossings can be an act of rush.

To Mijke:
If for any reason the mutara crossing is a positive add to our breed; I fully agree that it should take at least 3 generations of proper selection BEFORE the dogs fluxed into the registry of CsW. It is wrong to register another breed directly.

To Przemek:
I understand your practical argument. Because CsW have already been banned in Norway according to new law on "dog-keeping". The arguments against CsW was not only wolfblood but also its history and trainability as an attacking dog. The Saarlooswolfhond is yet not banned despite its wolf-blood becaust it is believed to be calmer and friendler and of no use in attacking. But new wolf-blood in the CsW will no doubt make it impossible to ever approve CsW in Norway - and even in other countries. So this is a good argument against the mutara-crossings.

You mentioned the strict selection by the army in the beginning of CsW history. My impression is that the Checks and Slovakans still practice good selection on function through their bonitation and training practices. Maybe strict show-breeding is the biggest threat to the breed??

To Margo:
I agree that there is a difference between european and canadian wolves. It is also difference between european wolves. But - if you want to improve HD I cannot see why canadian wolf would be contra-indicated. You must remember that by doing so we must breed back to CsW-lines anyway. The results will be CsW in the end - with improved hips if selected properly. We need not end up with canadian wolf characteristics.
See article on "backcross projedt" on Dalmatians (outcross with a pointer) to improve health. http://www.canine-genetics.com (scroll down to The Backcross Project). By the way; you will find a lot of informative articles on Canine Diversity Homepage.

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Old 17-09-2004, 11:59   #42
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Suski:

Yes, this is a sad truth. First of all wolf-crosses are illeagal through law. The checkoslovakan wolfdog is illeagal because of too reacent wolf-crossing and its ability to attack. Saarlooswolfhond has been spared to now, but the breed has many enemies who tries to ban it. Just say :"wolf" and its like putting gasoline on fire.

Margo:

You quoted a text from the NVVSWH about timberwolf-blood in SWH. I have excactly (by word) the same text in a book; The Encyclopeida of the Dog by Bruce Folge. I also beleived this till I consulted reputable breeders and folks knowing the breed for decenials. They reject it. But there can be a difference between the NVVSWH dogs and the dogs bred outside the Club. Maybe this is the cause of the inimical stands between Club-members and outsiders in this breed. CsW-breeders have something to learn here. SWH is a small breed with very limited dogs, lines and founder-animals. And the breed is split in 2 groups (Club-group and liberal-group) that cannot cooperate - even when the breed suffer serious hereditary health problemes (vz PRA).

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Old 17-09-2004, 12:23   #43
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Fenris - civilian breeders cannot select as effectively as the army - in army, dog-keeper is told to keep a dog or put it away and he has to obey. In civilian life, you can only suggest and as you dont provide the money, you cannot expect people do something that does not suit them. Of course, we have done a lot of work with improving the breeds character - you can see it clearlyu at our meeting, but we are already working with previously selected population.

Second thing against mutaras is that now we have CsV, which can be used as a partner for breeding with wolf, we dont need GSD with unknown origin. Also the popular belief of "blood dilution" is a very simplified view - if it worked, we would now have normal GSD. As we are now fighting recessive traits which came from GSD (HD is probably one of them, if it really is not present in wolves), the same way we would be fighting unwanted traits from canadian wolf. So use of canadian - GSD cross is quite bad, especially if we have CsV and carpathian wolves.

There was an argument, that no crossing of CsV and carpathian wolf worked - but how many were tried? If we want to do experiments, we have to prepare them. And we have to try out one solution as long as it takes to prove it is impossible (though, of course nothing can be proved in science ). Now as the crossing of dog with carpathian worked once, you cannot say that easily it is not possible.

Also popular is that Mr. Hartl is standing behind this. But CsV is not only Mr. Hartl's work. Mjr Rosik did a lot of work with the breed and we have to thank him that the breed was not exterminated when it proved it was not that suitable for army as was first expected. Slovak club did a lot of work and is the garant for FCI and should have some say in this too, BEFORE any experiments start. And, any dog resulting from experiment should be showed internationally, and judged by people that have at least no connections with their producers and supporters. If the people that want mutaras also judge mutaras, how can we know that they really are good for the breed?
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Old 17-09-2004, 16:59   #44
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Hi to everibody,
first of all I've to say that, as my English is not perfect, it's possible I,ve not understood perfectly all the discussions. So, before speek about the CWD, only a answer, in many magazines or books about dogd here in Italy, it's written that the SWD is a crossbreed between GSD and siberian wolf (in a magazine is written tha it suffer warm temperature because its siberian origin); what is the truth, there is a differente between carpatian and siberian wolf?
About CWD, as I'm a neophyte of these breed, and as there is a very little literature about it in Italian (a little book from the Italian club, that written from MR. Hartl is out of print from long time), all I know is what I've found on internet, but I Know that from when the breed was recogniced from FCI in 80', it's forbidden to improve the breed with wolf blood.
How this "dog" has the pedigree?
I also agree with all that say that as the problems that have actually the English owners, why use other wolf in breeding? Also in Italy we have many problems for all the breed of "big" dogs. I can speak only about our ministers here in Italy, and as a lot of them haven' t never had, or seen, o dog in their life, if they know that somebody cross dogs with wolves at present time, and sell them, I only imagine what will happen, a mess!!! (isn' t that so Stefano and Massimo?)
It's really necessary to use new blood? It won't better to control the pairing off (it's right? I don't know the exact word) of the all CWD we have?
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Old 17-09-2004, 18:00   #45
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Laura/Vlad - there is no siberian wolf in CsW. Difference between siberian wolves and carpathian ones are quite small, but these tqo subspecies evolved separately for quite long time. By the way, I don't think siberian origin would make wolf descendants feel bad in warmer climates (I mean southern Europe, of course Sahara is bit different ), because there is also a warm weather in Siberia (even warmer sometimes than in middle europe), only winters are harsher than here. And I think CsW suffers less in hot weather than most of other long-coated breeds. The coat is quite good isolation against warmth, either.

It is true, that since 1982, when the stud-book was registered, no mixing with wolf or other dog breed shoul take place (at least such puppies shouldn't be registered). But there is this problem - Mutaras are registered in "help register" which should be used for dog which are not registered, but which have all the properties of the breed and could be helpful in next breeding. So they can be used for breeding and after 4 generations their puppies can get registered normally, if all the generations were typical for that breed (no unwanted characteristic occured). So, if Mutaras get good marks (no matter who judges them, just it has to be recognized judge), their progeny in 4th generation could get into the stud book.
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Old 17-09-2004, 23:03   #46
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For Saschia,
sorry but I lead you into error, writing SWD I meaned Saarlos wolfdog, and I have only translated what was written in the magazine.
In the Italian post there is now a translation of an article of Mr. Hartl; ok, I've quite understood now, it's a sort of an experiment, but how can it be compareted in a dogshow with CWD? It had to be presented alone, not in comparison with other breed, it is the only one; this is my opinion, i don't want to convince anyone, I only ask because I'm very ignorant.
Only one thing, then I'll go, my old vet, yaers ago, said me that the HD problem, that all the "big" dogs have not only GSD (at that time he and I didn' t know anything about CWD), descend from wolves.
Is this true?
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Old 19-09-2004, 19:53   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saschia
Also popular is that Mr. Hartl is standing behind this. But CsV is not only Mr. Hartl's work. Mjr Rosik did a lot of work with the breed and we have to thank him...
Basicaly have no sense today speaking about the founders of breed or each persons. CsW is today FCI recognised breed and so that this breed own all breeders and owners of CsW. And all this people have the right to be inform and asking about agreement by such most important steps for the whole breed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefano
It seems that if isn't there "agreement of recognition" that lupina is a "wolf" and Armin is a "GSD Mix" this experiment of CZ kennel club agree with FCI rules and should be recognized by other kennel clubs.
Yes, but whats a most shamy si, that in oficially apply form of Mutara litter is by "Father" written "Armin (CsW without pedigree)" !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad
In the Italian post there is now a translation of an article of Mr. Hartl; ok, I've quite understood now, it's a sort of an experiment, but how can it be compareted in a dogshow with CWD?
In the oficially formulation of breeding committee of CZ Club from 15.9.2003 is written (I put here the original czech text, which you can found on http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz/art/clanek.asp?id=294 :
"Pokud budou køí¾enci splòovat podmínky standardu ÈSV, budou posouzeni na chovném svodu a bonitaci a zúèastní se mimo soutì¾ i klubových a spec. výstav ÈSV."

English :
"When will the hybrids meet expectations of CsW standard, will be valuate on youth presentation and bonitation and also take a participation, out of contest, on club and special shows of CsW."

Here you can see, how manipulated is whole situation. "Out of contest" means for Mutara fanatics, that simply participating on shows in normally show calsses and get normally show titels. This people simply made a rules, which themselves counteracting.
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Old 20-09-2004, 00:18   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenris
Sometimes one must be gentle and quiet-mannered to be able to achieve ones goals - as all noise attracts enemies.
Maybe this discussion hurts the breed more than the supposed mischief done?
Dear fenris,
I think, that open discussion and publication of real dates cant hurts anything. We dont want hidden any informations about our dogs. We want introduce true picture about our dogs, which are not only positive side. Nothing is only black or white. And mor destroyed the breed such people, who inform the public only about positives by our dogs.
Believe me, I know many people, which buying CsW without deeper knowledges about this race. Later were such people very disapointed and dogs are poor - landing in shelter or rest of life close in cage.
Our dogs are not only perfect. They have HD as well, epilepsy as well, cryptorchism as well etc. CsW is not race comming from space and the breeders and owners too. We living on this planet and also between us are super openly friendly people and on other side bleeders and just criminals as well.
Hidden informations only put the problem temporary to the fog and everybody will self imagine what can be in background. Later come the problem any case back deeper and stronger. Do you think, that such situation is better ?
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Old 20-09-2004, 01:38   #49
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It's a fact that the CZ club is doing this experiment.

It's a fact that they are not hiding it completely (they done bonitation and done 2 dog shows (yes, it's not the first one).

It's true, as I think fenris mentioned, that if their experiment improves the breed without harming it, then it can only be positively judged.

That's enought positive thinking I can manage, sorry.

Before starting to make experiments on canadian wolves and German shepards, did they think about looking for CLEAN HDA bloodlines out of CZ???
If it's good working dogs they are looking for, did they even try using the best working CSW bloodlines??
It's amazing!
Compare what has been done with my example:
AIM: make a FAST wolfdog.
What do you do, look for fast wolfdogs, mate them and select them and then look at the results or :
mate a greyhound with a timberwolf and then mate the result with a CSW??
AIM: make a small wolfdog:
what do you do, look for small wolfdogs, mate them and select them and then look at the results or:
mate a chiuahua with a mexican wolf and then mate the result with a CSW??
Do you understand that the whole thing has no sense at all?? It's not a matter of racism or anger against the CZ breed, it's a matter of common sense.
I'm happy with my wolfdog's HD, with his behaviour (particularly with children), with his looks, with his biting skills.
Why should I want Canadian wolf's blood in his future?? Why not selecting an experimental super CSW bloodline and use this as much as possible instead of using something which has NOTHING to do with CSW?
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Old 20-09-2004, 08:45   #50
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Massimo,
let me little bit correcting such "facts" (as you see, some people dont understand yet) :

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
It's a fact that the CZ club is doing this experiment.
Club , how I understand it, is all members and their representants, which comes from votes. About Mutara "experiment" decided only 4 members of breeding comittee (commitee is only support authority, which have no rights about something decide, its must make only club board). The other 2 members of commitee and all members of club board was not inform about it. So that am not sure, that "experiment" doing club ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
It's a fact that they are not hiding it completely (they done bonitation and done 2 dog shows (yes, it's not the first one).
Not hiding ? Did somebody seen the youth presentation and bonitation codes of Mutara hybrids ? Or their HD results ? We ask about it many times and answer was always the same "... Mutara is experiment and as long as the experiment will be not finished, no informations will be published ...". If somebody have this informations, please put it here. I will apologize on public for my comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
It's true, as I think fenris mentioned, that if their experiment improves the breed without harming it, then it can only be positively judged.
Please again, explain to "stupid czech CsW breeder" , how will this hybrids improve our breed ? I never hear on yet any argument or fact about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
Before starting to make experiments on canadian wolves and German shepards, did they think about looking for CLEAN HDA bloodlines out of CZ???
"HD free bloodlines" its anly dream. It cant exist really. All our dogs comming from same grandparents and so that, all have in own gens HD. Only by some dogs are this gens dominant and by some are weak.
HD is a biggest "argument " of Mutara fanatics. But where is true ? Both parents of Mutara hybrids have not pedigree, their origin is unknown and so that have no HD tests.
Now is just fact, that minimaly one from 3 puppies is not HD free. How can I built "HD free bloodline" on improve HD with animals, which have unknown origin ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
If it's good working dogs they are looking for, did they even try using the best working CSW bloodlines??

Never. The whole population of CsW is so small, that we cant separate some "working line" or other similary lines. But its true, that by some breeds you can see more successes by working, then by other ones. But I see, that mostly is it not because the dog, but because breeder selected the owners and prefere this, who is ready to working with dog.
About "working gens" can we not speaking by mother of Mutara hybrids (canadian wolf). Father Armin is good working dog but not good in the disciplins, which we need improve. He is good on the trace, but obedience and defence is on average of GSD niveau (according the valuation of tor trainers is under the average).

Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
Compare what has been done with my example:...
Yes, your examples are absolutely excellent. But some people simply dont want understand. And for some people if is under anything name of Mr. Hartl, then believe it 100% and dont check if he really stays behind it or if somebody misuse his name only.
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Old 20-09-2004, 09:14   #51
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It's really strange what we see on Ing. Karel Hartl's article about all this...

Andrea translated it on Italian forum... Did you saw it??

THEY MUST BE JOKING....!!!!!

It sounds like a soap opera .... :P I swear...
It says they tried first soooo many times to put wolves with CsW... but with no results......
(????What do they f***ing mean???Maybe they didn't saw any red harts lightin' inside wolves eyes, the female wasn't a Model like, so the male preferred the footbal game on tv...????)

One zoo answered that they should quarantine the CsW FEMALE before to put her together with the wolf (IT'S RIDICOLOUS, but still, what's the matter???the breeders have surely done it to go to the Craft in England in the past, so why not for... SCIENCE????).

So it was sooo impossible that they had to give up....
They were crying in one corner but then one day.....
What's up??????
Lupina had her lucky day with Armin , the rescue of the CsW!!!!!

Someone wrote here that if the wolves don't grow up together, then the male get's too aggressive or the female hate the male....

But....

If wolf's blood was soooooo important, we are in 2004...
Artificial insemination is commonly used by all....
Last results in vet's statistics are around 90% of success with fresh seed, 80% with refrigerated.


This means that THERE ARE NO quarantine, or dominant character, or distance or soap opera problems...

NOTHING that I saw in that article about the choice that took them from discarding CARPATI to using CANADIAN wolf is plausible

And I'm really unable to find a logical reason...
In our forum I've asked Andrea, the person that translated the article in the name of the CZ Club, to ask to the Club why they didn't tried with artificial insemination.
Still no answer....

That's all Volks...
Stay tuned... It smells really bad...
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Old 20-09-2004, 10:14   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himmel
THEY MUST BE JOKING....!!!!!
Its no joke, its reality. I ask just many times - please help us and activate discussion in your club and eventually send the protest against this "experiment" to the czech club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himmel
If wolf's blood was soooooo important, we are in 2004...
Artificial insemination is commonly used by all....
Last results in vet's statistics are around 90% of success with fresh seed, 80% with refrigerated.
In this point I mustsay, you are not right. According breeding rules of FCI is artifical insemination possible only in special cases, when just the same pair has had a puppies by naturally way and later come some physicaly problems. So that if pair dont have any puppies before, then is artificaly insemination forbidden (always I speak about FCI rules). I know, that this kind of insemination makes in many cases by first litter, but its ILLEGALLY.
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Old 20-09-2004, 18:33   #53
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Default Illegal...

They are not working in a politically correct way.... first of all...

I see somthing like "we absolutely need that blood" in their acting.

Second... as we know some breeds are actually done MORE through artificial insemination than with natural one, with FCI blessing (they know it, but shhhhhhhhhh....)
And considering problems with wolves, they maybe should say yes, expecially to avoid to spread infections.

FCI is against artificial insemination to prevent untrue paternity (but all people use it like they do with cows, pigs horses.... wasn't it better to do it with DNA control than to put it in a secret underworld?)

Giving the CAC to a F1 that is even not a normal F1 of a breed it's better than this???

Ing Hartl, even with open mind on Mutara's experiments told first he wanted to see if they were really HD free (they say they don't) and then to show animals NEAR official expo to let people see what's up...
After F1 2 and 3 if maybe they were ok so they should be used ecc...

It seems liike they have used his famous name to have his popular blessing but after that they do what they want even very far from his thought, isn't it?

In Italian forum most people answer "I'm not a breeder so we trust in CZ professional club", I think something strange appears even to those... 'Caesariensibus Tiberium Pontius Pilatus Praefectus Iudaeae'

And there's a friendships net stronger than breed's love.

Where do you think we should write to? To our italian ENCI or to CZ club or what?
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Old 20-09-2004, 19:36   #54
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Default Re: Illegal...

Massimo, I read today the italian forum (with translation of my friend, of course ). I see, that maybe in Italy you will have today one "Mutara agent" as well. Its me very sorry, but it looks, that its my friend Margotwolf (Andrea).
As I see from her answer, she take close contact with somebody from "Mutara fanatics" in CZ (maybe Monika Soukupova) and publish on italian forum her opinions. I dont say anything against, BUT ... Sentences like "... belive czech breeding comittee, because there are profesionals only ..." are absolutely not acceptable. Its only "proclamation". Everybody may have own opinion and own mind. OK, please, let the "professionals" put on the table facts and arguments. They proclamate absolutely generally opinions without facts support yet. I can believe somebody, who shows me by discussion, that is really profesional and not only because his name or academical title. We all are humans only. I accept very much role and work of Mr. Hartl. But neither Mr.Hartl is God. And is not dogma, that what he says must be a true. And who knows him personally knows, that he shows self like normally man, who must have not always true. Today only some people, which have no more argumets, misuse his name like a shield against other opinions.
Margo wrote on italian forum very seriously facts and arguments. If Andrea is in contact with "Mutara fanatics", please her, then she translate their answers and opinions on Margo's arguments. Then everybody can make slf a image. Am not 100% as well, but my opinion is, that true come only from a discussion and not from always repeating proclamations or dogma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himmel
Where do you think we should write to? To our italian ENCI or to CZ club or what?
Best way is, when you decide on club meeting and send oficiall club opinion on this situation to the czech club.
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Old 21-09-2004, 01:47   #55
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Fenris, by the most things in compare with your opinions - at the first look it´s a new idea t try the experiment from Mr. Hartl again with Timber-wolves instead of European Wolves (why not ?). But Timber-wolves are more shy, the difficulties seeme a lot higher of breeding pure CWD; and the existing Genpool of about 3.500 existing CWD makes it not necessary.
A bad opinion is the meaning, we need more hard killers, whatever that means. Dangerous dogs may a race like CWD faster destroy than this Timber-Wolve-experiment. One desaster with a child may destroy the legal basics for the whole population.
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Old 21-09-2004, 02:24   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himmel
It's really strange what we see on Ing. Karel Hartl's article about all this...

Andrea translated it on Italian forum... Did you saw it??
I did see it also, but my knowledge of Italian is very bad
Is there anybody able and willing to translate the whole original article in english language?

Quote:
Its no joke, its reality. I ask just many times - please help us and activate discussion in your club and eventually send the protest against this "experiment" to the czech club.
I know also a lot of dutch people (and the dutch club! ) want to help by sending a protest to the czech club.

And I should like to have an english version of this article, so I can translate this also for the Dutch forum

thanks in advange!

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Old 21-09-2004, 07:56   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPaul
A bad opinion is the meaning, we need more hard killers,
Please, dont falsify my words. Nobody here wrote, that we need "hard killers". Read again my comment. It was only real theoretical example, when the question was, what we need today improve in working gens by CsW. Then I wrote, then biggest problem by training and exams by CsW is less "bitting motivation" and if we want to take a GSD again to breed, then must take some positive improvement for us. GSD take to the breed again the seriosly faults like long tail, ears, dark eyes etc. So when just use GSD, then with some character positives, which on the weight overcharge the exterior faults.
Ralf, I see, that you must be always in oposition. But please dont falsify the comments, which people write. From reaction is clear, that everybody understand, what I means with this "hard killer" example. Only you will now shows here, that we want to have a agressive dogs. Please, show us your dogs, how well balanced are. Am ready to show my dogs always. My dogs are trained to bitting as well - and not only on arm cover, but to whole body, but when are with me everybody can come and touch or let from my dogs suck the face. The best chance compare our dogs is this Saturday by special CsW show in Phillipsreuth. I will be there with both my "killers". Am just looking for your well balanced, not agressive, not shy CsW.
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Old 21-09-2004, 11:50   #58
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Pavel,
nobody likes to take this "war" about the training (for example IPO) for a longer time on this page - it is less than any sence.
We will agree, that the Mutara-Experiment is a big filthiness; it is not necessary to do this. And, if we shall need new blood, then please by the old way. New lines from european wolve and CWD. So far we will compare, by the way. But this problem concerns not only breeders, also the whole owners are shocked by the Mutaras. And it is also not only the problem of some Clubs in several countries (Poland, CZ for example). The Italian breeders are quit strong and seperated, and no one knows, what the hell they are doing...
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Old 21-09-2004, 18:59   #59
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Pavel,
Andrea's participation to the forum in general but for what concerns the MUTARA matter is fundamental.
In our discussion there are both parts, the Mutara opposers and the Mutara sustainers (well, at least they are not opposers...)
It's a real DISCUSSION and we are not speaking against a wall.
This for me is positive.
Italian forum is probably the one with most messages. Maybe because we speak too much and also write too much. Maybe because we have the most wolfdogs...

I am not against the experiment itself.
They can experiment a monkey with a horse and call it a CSWolfdog for what I'm concerned, as long as they don't hide, they don't let it participate to dogshows, they don't try to make things "sneaky", they don't mix mixes with purebloods.
Unfortunately they have done all this, and that's why I'm an opposer!
It's good to know the reasons for which the experimentors are working, it's easier to oppose oneself!
Andrea is a good person and with A LOT of effort in breeding.
She works with her dogs (many other do not) and that's good.
Many italians are thinking that if it's REALLY an experiment and it's REALLY done to improve the race, then why not.
But all this Uncertainty does NOT allow the experiment to use a correct and analytical procedure (GS without pedigree, different wolf, crazy displasia numbers), the experiment itself has no reason to exist (maybe in a different way yes, but not like this!).


Quote:
Originally Posted by RPaul
The Italian breeders are quit strong and seperated, and no one knows, what the hell they are doing...RP
I'm not understanding, please clarify.
In italy we have the highest number of CSW, a very fast and clear communication between owners, a strong participation of owners and breeders to dogshows both in CZ and SK. What is being done seems quite clear.
I'm not a breeder but I like to explain what I mean when I write but I'm not understanding what YOU wrote. I for example don't know what YOU are doing either...but If I want to know, I ask.
Have you asked??
Massimo
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Old 21-09-2004, 22:20   #60
Pavel
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Massimo,
Andrea is my friend and I wrote her just a privat email, because I think, that she have only subjective informations from one side only. And it can be a problem (for other people here - Andrea is czech girl married in Italy). I hope, that she will collect the infos not only from "Mutara fanatics", but from other side as well. But she dont doing it yet ...
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