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Old 16-03-2002, 01:14   #1
Philippe
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Default Crossing breeds - Saarloos Wolfdog X Czechoslovakian Wolfdog

We have a young breed, we need to fix it in the future, selecting subject according to standard and working abilities... Do we really need to cross Saarloos and CsV today?

I (we) suspected such an illegal manipulation when looking some so-called CsV on dogs shows here in France... I'm really anxious to see pictures and to read article on this subject in the future... And what about a suspected CsV 'specialist/owner/breeder'?

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Old 16-03-2002, 08:56   #2
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Default Crossing breeds

Hi,

Quote:
We have a young breed, we need to fix it in the future, selecting subject according to standard and working abilities... Do we really need to cross Saarloos and CsV today?
Sure, that we dont need it. But this breeder officially declare by meeting of one european club, that czechs and slovaks dont know anything about the CsW breeding !!! I think, that it dont need more comments ...

Quote:
I (we) suspected such an illegal manipulation when looking some so-called CsV on dogs shows here in France...
I just said, that I cant write the name, so that cant comment this your suspection ).

Quote:
I'm really anxious to see pictures and to read article on this subject in the future...
Its the problem, Philippe. We cant signing somebody without proof. The problem is just quite deep, because according our database, today just was "produced" 33 dogs, which are declared like CsW and where is suspection, that this are the hybrids. Some are just hybrids the second generation, because new owners starting, with good belief, that everything is OK, breeding on this dogs. And for your information, from this 33 dogs were only 2 dogs bonitated and only 1 was approve to breed (with some defects).

Quote:
And what about a suspected CsV 'specialist/owner/breeder'?
Whats can we do without proof ? Only show the examples and this way warning the other people. The situation will be clear, when come the FCI rule, that every FCI dogs must have a DNA tests (and it must comming soon or later). Of course, that between CsW people is the name of this breeder very good known, so that is no problem to get this information unoficially. But oficially, on our pages or in this conference I cant do it. Please, understand me.

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Old 16-03-2002, 12:40   #3
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Default Crossing breeds

Hi,

Quote:
... between CsW people is the name of
this breeder very good known, so that is no problem to get this information unoficially. But
oficially, on our pages or in this conference I cant do it. Please, understand me.
You're right, Pavel, but what I want to say was : what could be done if the owner/breeder, shown
as a specialist of the breed, become a judge in a country without sufficient background?????
Could you imagine the disaster for future CsV generations? Some concerned countries don't have a
real owner club, despite a breed club grouping East breeds, no association able to forward
informations

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Old 16-03-2002, 16:09   #4
Pavel
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Default Crossing breeds

Quote:
what could be done if the owner/breeder, shown as a specialist of the breed, become a judge in a
country without sufficient background?????
We are again by the basic problem. Dont existing really CsW club. If you want to get a judge licence
for CsW in CZ, you must get a agreement from our club. And you dont get it, if you dont show a
knowledges and "background". By by us isnt all absolutely OK, because I speak now about judges, they
have a linence for specific races. Acoording stupid FCI rules. if you have more, than 5 breeds
licence in one FCI group(or 7 ? I dont know exactly number), you can get licence for whole FCI group
without get the special licence for other races in group. And if you have licence for more, that 2
FCI groups (same like by races in group, I dont know sure if 2, 3 or 4), then you can get the
"allround" licence. Its mean licence for all FCI races.

Quote:
Could you imagine the disaster for future CsV generations?
We (and slovaks, I hope, too) protect our breed against this dogs yet. But in other countries, where
isnt club, which have a strictly breeding rules is the situation little bit danger in this sense.

Quote:
Some concerned countries don't have a real owner club, despite a breed club grouping East breeds,
no association able to forward informations
I understand you. But again I must say, that I cant put simply their breeder name here or on our
pages. We would be very happy, if somebody from our visitors (not webmasters) write something about
it and can put this name there. Then we publish it like his opinion and his suspicion.

I hope, that I wrote it just now enought openly, taht everybody understand.

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Old 16-03-2002, 17:42   #5
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Default Crossing breeds

Quote:
I understand you. But again I must say, that I cant put simply their breeder name here or on our
pages. We would be very happy, if somebody from our visitors (not webmasters) write something about
it and can put this name there. Then we publish it like his opinion and his suspicion.
Pavel ,I don't think that somebody must write names ,erverybody who
read all the lists and pages knows who breeds right or wrong.There
always be people that want to do it on there own way and do it out of
the rules.
It's the same with the SWH,the only thing we can do is,speak and write
with each other and try to do it better.

Christa
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Old 17-03-2002, 09:41   #6
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Default Crossing breeds

Hello, Philippe.

Quote:
You're right, Pavel, but what I want to say was : what could be done if the owner/breeder, shown
as a specialist of the breed, become a judge in a country without sufficient background?????
Could you imagine the disaster for future CsV generations? Some concerned countries don't have a
real owner club, despite a breed club grouping East breeds, no association able to forward
informations 8-(((
In my family there lives first CSV in Russian federation. And I can
imagine some ways, when future of this breed will not be so good
in our country. By FCI rules judge with some licenses in one group
can get license for whole group, and we have lots of such judges, who
are specialists in different kinds of shepherds. You know, that
standard of CSV differs from any shepherd standard very much. Can you
imagine, how will they judge CSV? I meet tens of GSD and other
shepherds owners, and they usually says: "What a wonderful color! But
why he have such high hip and pasterns turned out? Is he ill?" And
situation with judgement can be the same (we didn't visit any dog
shows yet, but this situation is possible). Maybe, it's usual
practice for other countries too, but in Russia there is stupid
"tradition" to make new breeds for "local requirements" (results -
"black terrier" - based on Risenshnautzer , "Moscow guarding dog" -
based on Bernardine and Caucasian shepherd). In past, it was from
army and police kennels, but now there is lots of private kennels
with license, where can work any brainless people... And some people in
future can follow this way with CSV - breeding by shepherd standards
and without proper control of behavior and such things (like with
some "fighting dogs" - pitbull, some Maloss dogs...)

--
Kirill
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Old 22-10-2006, 23:43   #7
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Default Saarloos Wolfdog X Czechoslovakian Wolfdog -> translation of the french topic

I have been obliged to withdraw the image, which is subject to copyright, as the holder of the copyright has requested it be withdraw.

However, as there is an interest in the topic, I have transcribed below the text cited (including all the mistakes therein).

J.

Quote:
louveteaux

Lieu: Nantes
Date de mise en ligne: 23-aout-06

à naitre pour début octobre, chiots LOUP DE SAARLOOS X LOUP TCHEQUE. Mére puce nº (********). Seront sans LOF donc prix trés abordable.

Parents ultra typés, caractéres extras.

Chiots sociabilises, élevés en liberté dans un contexte famillial.

Vendus avec vaccins, puce, vermifuges et toutes garanties légales.
Reservation conseillée. Photos des parents sur demande.

rensiegnements par mail: (***********) ou par telephone (***********)


Quote:
Originally Posted by anounce
French / nantes
Public in : 23 - october-06
Wolf pupie

Born in the start of october, pupies from SAARLOOS WOLFDOG X CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG mother chip n° ---------- they will be without LOF ( french pedigree) and the price will be much negotiate.
Parents much pretty with excelent caracter.
Sociabilized pupies , breeding free and in familiar local.
Sold with vaccine, chip, worms-control and all legal garanties.
Advise reserve, photos of the parents " under order"

Details by e-mail ------------------ or for thelephone 06 ----------


Ok, the translation wasn't the "best" but is understandeable.

Paula
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Old 23-10-2006, 00:00   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephjj
ben oui n'importe quoi!!!
et ça c'est la meilleur des raisons pour fermer le livre de des origines a titre initial car c'est croissement cltxcls se renouvelle de plus en plus

stephjj
Well yes any one!!
This is the better reason for close the origin book at the "initial title" because these cross CzW X SwD is renewed more and more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavecanen


Here the link that have the anounce

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavecanen
Ca n'en sera peut être pas moins des bons chiens. Mais en attendant je trouve également cela préjudiciable.
Un confirmation à titre initial d'un de ces descendants sèmerait franchement la pagaille, non?
woudn't can be not less of good dogs, but while waiting I also find that is prejudicial.
One comfirmation at the initial title of one of these dogs would sow a disorder, not?
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Old 23-10-2006, 00:07   #9
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If someone that have one best french ( the mine is poor) and have time to translate... please help
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Old 23-10-2006, 00:15   #10
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Translation

Quote:
Wolf pups

Place: Nantes
Posted: 23-August-06

To be born early in October, pups Saarloos Wolfdog X Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. They will be without LOF (official pedigree) and therefore sold at an affordable price. Parents with great type, fantastic character.
Sold vaccinated, chipped, de wormed and with all the legal guarantees. Reservation advised. Photos of the parents on demand.
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Old 23-10-2006, 13:44   #11
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And who is "breeder" ?? Thanks for translation.
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Old 17-11-2006, 21:20   #12
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What's problem with crossing CsW and SAV - puppies haven't pedigree. .... Why do you ask who is the breeder ? It's nearly the same crossing CsW and GSH in Czech -puppies haven't pedigree.
Eva
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Old 19-11-2006, 21:15   #13
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hi

effectively puppy's haven't pedigre but they should be accept on initial tilte

have you same probleme in your country ?
because in france many people search femal for do it puppy's only for money with Swiss white shepherd or malinois or orther sort of dog it's a small % but it's the reality the money is the king all over the earth

Quote:
And who is "breeder" ?? Thanks for translation.

it's not a breeders

only some one who want's money but the problem is that one mixture two races well I distinguish suppose that the problem must be also existing in the countries origin of the race how managed to you that on a plan of the protection of the Czechoslovakian wolfhound ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephjj
ben oui n'importe quoi!!!
et ça c'est la meilleur des raisons pour fermer le livre de des origines a titre initial car c'est croissement cltxcls se renouvelle de plus en plus

stephjj
Well yes any one!!
This is the better reason for close the origin book at the "initial title" because these cross CzW X SwD is renewed more and more.
somme people can shout and to say that it are against but one very of same fact of "without pedigré" even 6 months ago


can you say if the deliver origins is open in your country ?
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Old 19-11-2006, 22:05   #14
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Here alone dogs with pedigree, come from one cadastrated breeder can have the pedigree, for who have a pure dog without pedigree can make pass for one avaliation maked by 3 different judges, if the dog is pure and in the standard it will receive one other tipe of "pedigree" call CPR ( cetificate of pure breed) that not have the name of the parents and have a different color, if this CPR dog make 5 generations pure dogs an in-standard animals the line of this dog will be consider pure, the pupies of the 6 generation will receive the pedigree.
With the FCI breeds this not cause any problems for the breed, but with the brazilian rare breeds not reconigsed by FCI, this cause a big problem because few judges know the standard of these new rare brazilian breeds and one mix breed pass easly as a pure dog, and receive the pedigree, can pass easly as a "new blood line" for the not well informed breeders.
For the FCI breed all CPR dogs pass for one strong discrimination make for the other breeders that not accept the existence of the CPR ( 99% of the breeders not accept).
For the brasilian breeds non-FCI, well, all will depend on the breeder that have "find" this new blooded animal, if is really a new blooded animal or alone a new false mix dog ( more common).

Greetings

Paula
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Old 20-11-2006, 02:14   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocco
What's problem with crossing CsW and SAV - puppies haven't pedigree. .... Why do you ask who is the breeder ? It's nearly the same crossing CsW and GSH in Czech -puppies haven't pedigree.
Eva
hi the problem with crossing csw and sav is that not all breeders are honest and that a few in particular register the pups as either csw or sav, we have seen the results in other articles, we have seen very shy dogs registered as csw bred in france,,,,,,, they are two separate breds and should stay that way, i have made a report to the dutch breed club on cross breedings that i know of and have evidence of, also of dogs being born in france both csw and sav and being registered in different countries, it goes on very often,one perfect example the litter of csw born on 14 of april 2003 from chrop z kladenske zare cz and besi blue de louba tar were not born in luxemburg at the dancing cloud kennels, they were registered there but where born in france i have photos of the pups in france as i was there when they were born''''''''one of numerous litters of csw and sav born in france and registered else where, paul winder
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Old 20-11-2006, 03:16   #16
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Default Re: Utile? Legitim?any one? -> translation of the french

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
I have been obliged to withdraw the image, which is subject to copyright, as the holder of the copyright has requested it be withdraw.

However, as there is an interest in the topic, I have transcribed below the text cited (including all the mistakes therein).

J.

Quote:
louveteaux

Lieu: Nantes
Date de mise en ligne: 23-aout-06

à naitre pour début octobre, chiots LOUP DE SAARLOOS X LOUP TCHEQUE. Mére puce nº (********). Seront sans LOF donc prix trés abordable.

Parents ultra typés, caractéres extras.

Chiots sociabilises, élevés en liberté dans un contexte famillial.

Vendus avec vaccins, puce, vermifuges et toutes garanties légales.
Reservation conseillée. Photos des parents sur demande.

rensiegnements par mail: (***********) ou par telephone (***********)


Quote:
Originally Posted by anounce
French / nantes
Public in : 23 - october-06
Wolf pupie

Born in the start of october, pupies from SAARLOOS WOLFDOG X CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG mother chip n° ---------- they will be without LOF ( french pedigree) and the price will be much negotiate.
Parents much pretty with excelent caracter.
Sociabilized pupies , breeding free and in familiar local.
Sold with vaccine, chip, worms-control and all legal garanties.
Advise reserve, photos of the parents " under order"

Details by e-mail ------------------ or for thelephone 06 ----------


Ok, the translation wasn't the "best" but is understandeable.

Paula
hi translation is good i have now two posts on this subject i have mentioned the litter of czechoslovakian wolfdogs born in france then registered in luxemburg at dancing cloud kennels, for a while on the breeders listings we had breeder in luxemburg, they are no longer on the breeders listings???? may i ask wolfdog.org why this breeder was removed, the kennel is under investagation by abreed club in holland as is the kennel in france, p winder
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Old 20-11-2006, 12:20   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paida99
can you say if the deliver origins is open in your country ?
Hello Fabrice,

in Czech Republic or Slovakia, the studbook is closed. No dog without pedigree would be signed-in and no dog without pedigree (or without bonitation) is allowed to breed. If the owners still breed on such dog, the puppies are not given pedigree and the owner is subject to disciplinary punishment from the CSW Club (if he is a member, of course).
However, in CR at least, there exists something like "supporting register" at the studbook, where in case of need, a dog without pedigree could be signed-in. But the possibilities of using this dog in breeding would be subject to decision of the breeding commitee of the CSW Club, or probably even subject of the CSW club board, conference etc.

In CR, breeding on dogs without pedigree is higly criticised and dissaproved by the responsible breeders (owners, judges, refferees, Club, Kynological Union etc.). Such action is considered only as "puppy producing" for profit and with no interest of the breed, it´s improving and wellness.

Which is a reason why Hanka asks about the foolish crossing of CSW and Saarloos.
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Old 20-11-2006, 13:12   #18
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In the German Kennel Club and as far as I am informed in the FCI there is the possibility to get dogs without pedigree registered by phenotype-simularity. The offspring won´t get normal pedigrees for several generations. The main positiv thing about it - and I think the reason for this regulation - is that you have the possibility to increase the genetic variability, on that way it is possible to get good dogs into breeding. The problem about it are dogs like the Saarloos-CSW-crosses. Though the crosses are a benefit for the Saarloos in my opinion they are a very bad thing for the CSW. There are two different types of PRA in the Saarloos breed, a genetic form of Epilepsy and a small brain degeneration. All those deseases are rezessiv what means they can spread quite a time before they start to make troubles, especially in countries without control of inherited eye deseases.
Actually I think in general it is a good thing to have the possibility to get good dogs without pedigrees into breeding, we don´t have so many good stud dogs at the moment. But in paticular it is a huge responsibility for the breeders to use this in a positiv way and I know of many cases where it has been misused not at least with the Mutara-Crosses. We are pretty sure that there are several Saarlooscrosses breeding as CSW at the moment what is the reason why I wouldn´t use some westerneuropean lines besides all other points.

Ina
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