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Old 31-12-2004, 17:33   #21
Koos
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Hello,

this looks like a discussion without any end.

Why could not be a breeder from the West an even good breeder as from the East?

When he is good enough, then he also cares about the puppy's, he even play with them, he even socialisate them and do all the things what he have to do for normal, balanced dogs.

It is his responsibility to take care of the puppy's because HE wants them and put them on this world. When HE only do this for making money then he is in my opinion not a good breeder, because from breeding you cannot make a living from it, only you have every 14 days a litter during the whole year. And that is inpossible with CW's. when this kind of breeders has a lot of other races, he cannot pay attention to CW's and even the other puppy's from other races. In that case, I wouldn't buy a puppy from such a breeder. Even 2 litters is very intensive to raise them.

So the difference of good breeders is also not a question of origin countries but also the status of good breeder. And what is a good breeder???? Everybody has so his own opinion about this.

A puppybuyer and the breeder have to be confidence in each other. If confidence is not there, then you can better not buy a puppy or sell a puppy to eachother.

By the way, mostly every breeder in the West, had bought his dogs, which he breed with in the East, and when he is on a good way, he tried to breed to the standard of the East, so the same question again, where is the difference?????

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Old 31-12-2004, 18:45   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff
Why could not be a breeder from the West an even good breeder as from the East? By the way, mostly every breeder in the West, had bought his dogs, which he breed with in the East, and when he is on a good way, he tried to breed to the standard of the East, so the same question again, where is the difference?????
Nobody says that breeders in the West are bad, and those in the East - good. What's more, everybody states here that what really matters is the quality and devotion of the breeder, and not where he comes from or how much he/she charges for the puppies. This was also Margo's claim.
I suppose this misunderstanding comes from attempts to overcome the simplified convictions of many people in the USA, Canada, Australia, and even some from the Western European countries etc. that
1. if they pay more for something they will get a better quality "product" - this rule does not apply to the complicated reality of Old and New EU countries
2. they'd rather trust sellers/ breeders/businessmen/trainers, etc. from the "more civilised" Western part of the continent rather than risk hiring or doing businesses with people from the East.
I've personally faced such attitudes many times (though not in relation to dog breeding ) and find them really unjust and unjustified

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So the difference of good breeders is also not a question of origin countries but also the status of good breeder. And what is a good breeder???? Everybody has so his own opinion about this.
Well, I suppose there are certain standards. They are very clearly presented even on the wolfdog webpage.

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A puppybuyer and the breeder have to be confidence in each other. If confidence is not there, then you can better not buy a puppy or sell a puppy to eachother.
Exactly this was my point What's the sense of coming from Australia and buying accidental / random Czech puppy from the first available breeder, then taking it to Australia and ..... paying $10 000 for it
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Old 31-12-2004, 19:09   #23
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Rona, I think that the last sence ist the whole fact. You haven't even come from Australia to do such a things. Even a lot of people coming from the whole part of West/East Europe, can do such a thing. They think or say "that is a beautifull dog and such one, thats what I wanted" They don't realise what kind of dog this is and how many breeders sell such a dog to such people???? Without knowing something about these people only they sell a dog for money.

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Old 31-12-2004, 19:18   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff
By the way, mostly every breeder in the West, had bought his dogs, which he breed with in the East, and when he is on a good way, he tried to breed to the standard of the East, so the same question again, where is the difference?????
There is no difference. The problem is somewere else. If a breeder buys dogs in CZ or SK and the dogs will develop wrong and become untypical dogs or dogs with many faults. If the breeder will decide to breed such dogs or he/she breeds dog without having any idea about the breed standard that you will see the difference very soon because...
...such breeder will be not successful in the origin countries and their dogs will never become "famous". But it is no problem to gain many, many titles in a countries where CzW are very soldom or where the breeders promoted wrong type and only untypical dogs have there chance to win.

Simply said: it is much easier to select good dogs in the origin countries than in other countries. Best example was Poland. In the beginning the judges had no idea about the breed. You can not imagine which "specific" dogs get note excellent in that time. Now it changed a lot but still - there are only about 40 dogs here and it is no problem for any dog to become Polish Champion. If you have problems with Polish judges which don't want to give the CACs to your dog - you can simply go where judges from abroad judge this breed. They always give everything...
It is almost not possible in CZ or SK and if a dog is Champion of this countries it is really 10x more worth that 10 championships from other countries.

For Mirka something else is schocking: the character of the dogs. But we spoke many times about it...

But the main point is the control. In CZ and SK the clubs control quality of the puppies. They also control the judges - is someone is judging very bad you can cause that it will be forbidden for him to judge CzWs! If you breed nice dogs you will be appreciated.
I know many good breeders in West Europe which really "feel" this breed. They have very well-thought-out imports and breed very nice dogs with interesting pedigrees. They really support development of this breed. But in many cases they complain about judges and breeders in their country because it is sometimes even imposible to stand out with good dogs there. Why? Because judges (supported by well-known and powerfull commercial breeders) preffer characteristic by CzW which are described in the origin coutries (and in the breed standard) as faults or even huge faults.... So id f you have typical dog you will always loose...
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Old 31-12-2004, 19:58   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff
You haven't even come from Australia to do such a things. Even a lot of people coming from the whole part of West/East Europe, can do such a thing.
What do you mean by "such a thing"?
- to buy an "accidental puppy" from an irresponsible breeder? Yes, you're right. There are masses of naive people who buy loads of absurd things, though as we all know, animals are not things .
- to pay $10,000 for a CzW puppy? I don't suppose many individuals would be that naive
If somebody buys any "poor quality" puppy from an irresponsible breeder - it's a sad thing, but if somebody saves for a couple of years, or so, to afford to import such a dog to Australia and spends God knows how long to deal with all the red tape - the waste is even greater It's a tradegy, isn't it?

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They think or say "that is a beautifull dog and such one, thats what I wanted" They don't realise what kind of dog this is and how many breeders sell such a dog to such people???? Without knowing something about these people only they sell a dog for money.
This is the crucial issue. Because people shouldn't trade animals like other products. On the other hand, the fact that money is involved in the transaction of puppies is tempting for many unethical, greedy or just simple, stupid people to make money on them regardless to any other factors. There is no other way to stop them than through ..market instruments - (re: the above post by Margo). They will soon lose credibility and buyers' confidence. And through education and organisations, e.g. FCI, clubs etc.

But we must also remember that many people do not buy dogs in order to breed, exhibit and train them, but just to have pets. For them the "breeing quality" of the puppy does not matter that much. And there should also be a market for such owners... (well... maybe they should rather be discouraged from buying the Czechs, especially if they are inexperienced dog owners )

By the way, I wish you and all Wolfdog lovers all the best in the New Year.

P.S. And now I'm off to cuddle my poor, terrified dog, who hates New Year Eve's fireworks
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Old 01-01-2005, 06:26   #26
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Hi Guys,
It seems some of my articles have been misunderstood.Nobody in their right mind should pay $10000 for a pup.That price is after buying a pup,vaccinating it,shipping,quarantine licences and time,all up it may cost $10000 to fully import a dog to Australia.I have heard of puppy passports,but they're irrelevant cos a dog still has to be 12mo to come here.All I was saying to Australians is,that if you are willing to spend that sort of money on a dog,you need to talk to alot of people-breeders&owners,even dogtrainers who have experience with CzW's to get a good open and honest picture of the breed.When I bought my first GSD,I spent $300 on books about the breed,even though they are a popular dog here,I spoke to people and trained her to schutz standard.I didn't distrust what the breeder told me,I just expanded my knowledge and learnt alot along the way.Also,if a person is absolutely sold on the idea of a dog,especially one that is not in the country already they should spend the money and time to see the dogs,their natural behaviour,how they are trained and fed and speak to judges to learn about what they look for in shows.East or West Europe doesn't matter!What matters is that you know what you are getting yourself into,no matter the breed of dog.
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Old 01-01-2005, 10:07   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slarman
It seems some of my articles have been misunderstood.Nobody in their right mind should pay $10000 for a pup.That price is after buying a pup,vaccinating it,shipping,quarantine licences and time,all up it may cost $10000 to fully import a dog to Australia.
Nevertheless, the overall cost of a puppy might reach that sum...

Quote:
All I was saying to Australians is,that if you are willing to spend that sort of money on a dog,you need to talk to alot of people-breeders&owners,even dogtrainers who have experience with CzW's to get a good open and honest picture of the breed.
Right. That was also my view. It would be a double, triple, or even more -le, waste to invest all that money and especially efforts to import just an ordinary, single pet dog to the opposite part of the globe.

Quote:
When I bought my first GSD,I spent $300 on books about the breed,even though they are a popular dog here,I spoke to people and trained her to schutz standard.I.....Also,if a person is absolutely sold on the idea of a dog,especially one that is not in the country already they should spend the money and time to see the dogs,their natural behaviour,how they are trained and fed and speak to judges to learn about what they look for in shows.
You seem to be a model dog buyer. There would be no problems discussed above if everybody had a similar attitude to yours

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East or West Europe doesn't matter!What matters is that you know what you are getting yourself into,no matter the breed of dog.
YES! Yes! YES! But many people, especially those from distant, non-European countries, are prejudiced against anything that comes from East Europe. I don't blame them - this distrust comes from the lack of information and experience.
But that's why so many people on this forum try to open their eyes and on the one hand explain the complicated European economic relations that influence puppy prices and the other - convince them that they might have a greater choice of breeders and in result buy a more interesting and promising puppy if they don't reject breeders from Eastern Europe on principle.
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Old 16-01-2005, 08:06   #28
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WOW! look at all the replies. Sorry guys I have been a little busy lately and havent written back. Hey another aussie GREAT! Where abouts in Australia do you live? Thanks everybody there have been some very important points made. Let me tell you all a bit about myself. Firstly my real name is Janet and I am 23 years old. Yes that is young but I have grown up with dogs and I am working on becoming an animal behaviourist or Ethologist. I already own one Czech Shepherd. This is also a wolfdog but looks a bit like a shepherd. I LOVE wolves and I am planning on visiting a country where I can see these animals in the wild. I also hope to actually visit the breeder before I purchase. So you can add another $10,000 to the cost. I also estimated it would cost $10,000 to import and that England would be best but I am waiting to see what happens with DEFRA. I will not be purchasing imediately and since I have already known about this breed for 5 years I feel that I know this breed as much as I can given the distance. I also have looked into other breeds so I know that I really like this particullar breed. I hope to keep contact with breeders through this site so that when I do travel I will know a little about them and there dogs. I would be happy to either do a joint-venture or talk about pups that I import (keep in mind this may be another 5 years away) with any other Australian. I intend to breed so hopefully I can bring out more than one dog and I also intend to keep track of pups sold and would take unwanted animals back free of charge. I grew up with troubled dogs that had to be re-homed and I know the amount of work that goes into it. I hope that answers every bodies questions thanks again for so many wonderful replies.

P.S I am not worried to much about price, I want an animal that Australia can look at as the same as the rest of the world, not some new breed.
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Old 20-01-2005, 00:18   #29
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Hello Sharon,

Let me first of all express my condolences, I can only imagine what it would be like to lose one of our dogs, but I do feel how devastating it can be.

On the issue of wolfdogs, and in particular the identification of your wolfdog, even though there are other people around here who know an awful lot more about this than I do, I would ask you to show us some pictures so we can compare a little and try to figure out what kind of dog it is you had, since there are actually several different breeds of wolfdogs. It might also be helpful if you told us a bit more about Meg, her character and the way in which she acted towards your family, other people, other dogs, unknown situations, that kind of thing.
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Old 20-01-2005, 00:38   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharoncooper
she was the most amazing animal red and brown in colour with yellow eyes and a dark liver coloured pigment her nose was a very dark liver colour pink whever i went with her people either crossed the road to avoid her or walked up and said what is that . she need motivating for training had unlimited energy and boundless curiosity nothing like any animal
Sharon,

I am very sory for what happened to your dog. But as I read your description of your dog, I do not believe she could be Czechoslovakian wolfdog. CSW´s do not have such colors, though as you look at some pictures in the gallery, you might have that idea. But CSW never has a brown nose or liver colour pink nose. Colors like you describe are though likely to found at Saarloos wolfdogs. The standard of Saarloos allows the wolfdogs to be brownish and with brown nose, though it makes them look a bit like malamutes or huskies (that´s only my opinion). I do not know, how probable is that a Saarloos would make it to Australia, but I bet that it was not a CSW, that you had at home.

Oh and hmm, it is also probable, that your dog was a cross of something, which ended up looking like a wolfdog. Just take a look at the forum about the Utonagans..

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