DM test results and breeders

mijke · 14-11-2010, 23:30

Reading other topics about DM on wolfdog, I did see a lot of blaming of breeders in relation of DM test results...

But it is soooooo silly to blame specific breeders when it is known DM did appear in their lines.

In first place you stimulate owners and breeders in future only to publish the " Free" results (because otherwise they will receive comments) And then we can never see how DM is spread in the breed!
And second: Only since a short time we have the DM test for the CsW breed. (nobody even did know before that this disease was in the breed!)
So in the past a lot of combinations can be made with a high risk for DM, without knowing by anybody....

I'll give you my personal example:
I did import my CsW female from CZ. When she was grown up, we did see she had a good character, HD A and several good show results. (in that time dwarfism and DM test did not exist) And we did decide to breed with her. I did look for good combinations and for one of her litters I did use a male from SK.

The last years I did spend a lot of time to get validated the Dwarfism and DM test for the CsW breed.
And when these test were possible for CsW breed I also did test my (already sterilized) female. She was Free of Dwarfism and carrier of DM.

From the litter with the SK male one of the offspring was carrier of DM. And 2 days ago I did receive the result of a female of this litter and she was affected. (DM/DM)

So also the male from SK that I did use was unfortunately also carrier..
And it means also that I am also a breeder of an affected DM/DM CsW.

So `breeder blamers` you also now can start shooting at me!

Personal I only can hope that the affected female never will get the physical problems of DM.
But I can´t change the history! Just like a lot of other breeders I did my best to make the best combinations for the breed with my female.

I am convinced that in future more DNA test will be available for the CsW breed. And it will become more difficult to make the right combinations for the breed. (that will depend of a lot of factors)
But I hope everybody realizes that it on that moment it will be also silly to blame breeders for combinations they did make in the past!

On this moment only an extreme low percentage of the CsW breed is yet tested!!!!

And when dog combinations for new litters are not tested, it does not mean there was/is NO DM in these lines......

So for now it is only important that as much as possible CsW's will be tested

And again:

DM is an old disease that exists in every breed and also in other not breed dogs
Not all DM affected dogs get physical problems
Probably creates a combination of more factors that a dog will get the physical problems

Breeding of breed dogs is a closed system
When higher homozygote in a breed : more genetic diseases, more behavior problems, less resistor, weaker performance, less vitality, more birth dead, and smaller litters
Heterozygote is needed for a healthy population of a breed!

So as told before in other topics, the advice of genetic specialists:
Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible

But don't exclude dogs for breeding!

Try to keep the gene poule as broadly (and maximize) as possible

Everybody has to realize there is not any reason for "blind panic" about DM!!
But also in CsW breed it seems to be "an old disease" that did start in the past.
And probably it did start in earlier lines in countries of origin and a lot more CsW's can be Carrier or Affected.

So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM!
Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born!

On this moment it would not be clever to make specific breeding rules based on the relative few CsW that have DM test results !
Especially when not everything is known about this disease.

But for the future of the breed it is necessary to test as much CsW's as possible, to see how this genetic disease is spread.
And of course in the meantime a lot of more research about DM is still needed!

jmvdwiel · 15-11-2010, 01:35

thank you for your hounest story.

But genetically the male you used could be a carrier or an affected dog unless there was also a free dog in this litter.

But as you say we can test now so hopefully in the future the DM affected dog wil drop dramaticly in our breed and the only way we can achieve this is by testing at least the breeding dogs and not blaming any breeder for the dogs they produces in the past.

Let the past be the past and make a new future for the breed.

Rona · 15-11-2010, 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

Reading other topics about DM on wolfdog, I did see a lot of blaming of breeders in relation of DM test results...

Blaming openly, or just indicating things betwen the lines.... This was exactly my concern when I read this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Nebulosa
I recommend to make the DM test for Iran.

Daniela, what did you want to suggest when you made this 'recommendation'? There are hundreds of DM untested reps around including the rep you used, if I understood correctly? Paula herself has a few breeding dogs now, so why did you mention Iran? Do you happen to know something you think you should share? In that case wouldn't it been fairer either to discuss it in public or pass this info directly to Paula?

It's not personal, I'm not particularly interested in Iran or Nebulosa's kennel or breeding policy, but I just like to understand the reason and deeper meaning of what people intend to communicate.

Hanka · 15-11-2010, 14:48

Mijke, I think only stupid persons can blame some breeders about these illneses in breeding.

loco · 15-11-2010, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Mijke, I think only stupid persons can blame some breeders about these illneses in breeding.

So you can call me a half stupid person

!!!
Because I don´t blame breeders for a sick dog who was breed before the test DM/dwarfism was validated.
But every affected dog who was/is breed after the test DM/Dwarfism was validated, those breeders I do blame for breeding a sick dog

!!!

Groette Martine.

Hanka · 15-11-2010, 20:13

hello Martine, no problem, but read Mijke´s thread once again. I react to her text.

wolfin · 15-11-2010, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by loco

So you can call me a half stupid person

!!!
Because I don´t blame breeders for a sick dog who was breed before the test DM/dwarfism was validated.
But every affected dog who was/is breed after the test DM/Dwarfism was validated, those breeders I do blame for breeding a sick dog

!!!

Groette Martine.

But when you buy a wolfdog, parents too not have DM or dwarf test, but you buy this dog

this same make and I and others breeders. I think later moore breeders make this test, but not want this in this moment. When breed without HD and ED test, who is important and this can make all breeder minimum 15 years, not believe in this DM and dwarf test that it will start to do all the breeders here and now. step by step. moore patience

I agree with Mijke

this not are "world end" in breed, only moore test to breeds healty.

loco · 15-11-2010, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

But when you buy a wolfdog, parents too not have DM or dwarf test, but you buy this dog

I agree with Mijke

this not are "world end" in breed, only moore test to breeds healty.

Nomad is from 10-12-2006 so that is before the test dwarfism and DM exist

.
And I also agree with Mijke

.
Because thanks to the test you have the choice of breeding dogs who are not affected by DM or Dwarfism

.
And that is why I wil blame breeders who breed after 2010 a CSW affected by dwarfism or DM.

Groette Martine.

loco · 15-11-2010, 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin

, only moore test to breeds healty.

I totally agree with you on this

.

CDaniela · 16-11-2010, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

Daniela, what did you want to suggest when you made this 'recommendation'?

Because I think (I hope), that in future will be result DM test for all breeding dogs.
Breeder plans to freeze his sperm ... for the future.

elf · 17-11-2010, 13:12

Mijke, any updates on new researches from Berne University and Dusseldorf institut ?

michaelundinaeichhorn · 17-11-2010, 13:44

I will answer as I am into it. No and I haven´t expect any because this will take years. We are still at the point to collect samples as we need at least 50 ill dogs (with clinical symptoms) and at least (better more) healthy ones.
As far as I am informed can the test in Düsseldorf be already used to diagnose DM directly on an ill dog what is a big improvement in diagnosis.
We are close to 50 healthy ones and have a few ill ones. As we are still awaiting the Slovakian translation of the text that you already know it is still not published.

Ina

loco · 23-11-2010, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I will answer as I am into it. No and I haven´t expect any because this will take years.

What are they going to research ???

Groette Martine.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 23-11-2010, 15:44

DM cannot be caused only by those genes as there seem to be homocygotic carriers that never get ill. Also in humans there are different kinds of this disease with different ways of heritage but all causing the same symptoms.

The actual test shows the mutated gene allright but was not varified on enough ill dogs so several questions stay unanswered.
We talked Bern to do a research project on our breed and to keep an DNA-databank both for free.
Sonja Bognarova will publish the informations as soon as she recieves the Slovakian translation (!!) in most languages here on wolfdog.org. As always everything took more time as planned.

Ina

elf · 24-11-2010, 12:39

Well, I think it's not needed to have every languages already translated to publish this, if I understood well only one language is missing, it can easily be added afterwards, each months gained is good, especially when you know that researches programs can come and go quick as cash flow is never enough in research area (at least in my country and that's a pity).

14-11-2010, 23:30	#1
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	DM test results and breeders Reading other topics about DM on wolfdog, I did see a lot of blaming of breeders in relation of DM test results... But it is soooooo silly to blame specific breeders when it is known DM did appear in their lines. In first place you stimulate owners and breeders in future only to publish the " Free" results (because otherwise they will receive comments) And then we can never see how DM is spread in the breed! And second: Only since a short time we have the DM test for the CsW breed. (nobody even did know before that this disease was in the breed!) So in the past a lot of combinations can be made with a high risk for DM, without knowing by anybody.... I'll give you my personal example: I did import my CsW female from CZ. When she was grown up, we did see she had a good character, HD A and several good show results. (in that time dwarfism and DM test did not exist) And we did decide to breed with her. I did look for good combinations and for one of her litters I did use a male from SK. The last years I did spend a lot of time to get validated the Dwarfism and DM test for the CsW breed. And when these test were possible for CsW breed I also did test my (already sterilized) female. She was Free of Dwarfism and carrier of DM. From the litter with the SK male one of the offspring was carrier of DM. And 2 days ago I did receive the result of a female of this litter and she was affected. (DM/DM) So also the male from SK that I did use was unfortunately also carrier.. And it means also that I am also a breeder of an affected DM/DM CsW. So `breeder blamers` you also now can start shooting at me! Personal I only can hope that the affected female never will get the physical problems of DM. But I can´t change the history! Just like a lot of other breeders I did my best to make the best combinations for the breed with my female. I am convinced that in future more DNA test will be available for the CsW breed. And it will become more difficult to make the right combinations for the breed. (that will depend of a lot of factors) But I hope everybody realizes that it on that moment it will be also silly to blame breeders for combinations they did make in the past! On this moment only an extreme low percentage of the CsW breed is yet tested!!!! And when dog combinations for new litters are not tested, it does not mean there was/is NO DM in these lines...... So for now it is only important that as much as possible CsW's will be tested And again: DM is an old disease that exists in every breed and also in other not breed dogs Not all DM affected dogs get physical problems Probably creates a combination of more factors that a dog will get the physical problems Breeding of breed dogs is a closed system When higher homozygote in a breed : more genetic diseases, more behavior problems, less resistor, weaker performance, less vitality, more birth dead, and smaller litters Heterozygote is needed for a healthy population of a breed! So as told before in other topics, the advice of genetic specialists: Try to breed as less Affected dogs as possible But don't exclude dogs for breeding! Try to keep the gene poule as broadly (and maximize) as possible Everybody has to realize there is not any reason for "blind panic" about DM!! But also in CsW breed it seems to be "an old disease" that did start in the past. And probably it did start in earlier lines in countries of origin and a lot more CsW's can be Carrier or Affected. So it will be good to test a lot more CsW's for DM! Only then we can see how DM is spread in the breed and try to avoid that more Affected CsW's will be born! On this moment it would not be clever to make specific breeding rules based on the relative few CsW that have DM test results ! Especially when not everything is known about this disease. But for the future of the breed it is necessary to test as much CsW's as possible, to see how this genetic disease is spread. And of course in the meantime a lot of more research about DM is still needed! __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

17-11-2010, 13:12	#11
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Mijke, any updates on new researches from Berne University and Dusseldorf institut ? __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

24-11-2010, 12:39	#15
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Well, I think it's not needed to have every languages already translated to publish this, if I understood well only one language is missing, it can easily be added afterwards, each months gained is good, especially when you know that researches programs can come and go quick as cash flow is never enough in research area (at least in my country and that's a pity). __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

15-11-2010, 01:35	#2
jmvdwiel Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,061	thank you for your hounest story. But genetically the male you used could be a carrier or an affected dog unless there was also a free dog in this litter. But as you say we can test now so hopefully in the future the DM affected dog wil drop dramaticly in our breed and the only way we can achieve this is by testing at least the breeding dogs and not blaming any breeder for the dogs they produces in the past. Let the past be the past and make a new future for the breed.

15-11-2010, 14:48	#4
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Mijke, I think only stupid persons can blame some breeders about these illneses in breeding.

15-11-2010, 20:13	#6
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	hello Martine, no problem, but read Mijke´s thread once again. I react to her text.

17-11-2010, 13:44	#12
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I will answer as I am into it. No and I haven´t expect any because this will take years. We are still at the point to collect samples as we need at least 50 ill dogs (with clinical symptoms) and at least (better more) healthy ones. As far as I am informed can the test in Düsseldorf be already used to diagnose DM directly on an ill dog what is a big improvement in diagnosis. We are close to 50 healthy ones and have a few ill ones. As we are still awaiting the Slovakian translation of the text that you already know it is still not published. Ina

23-11-2010, 15:44	#14
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	DM cannot be caused only by those genes as there seem to be homocygotic carriers that never get ill. Also in humans there are different kinds of this disease with different ways of heritage but all causing the same symptoms. The actual test shows the mutated gene allright but was not varified on enough ill dogs so several questions stay unanswered. We talked Bern to do a research project on our breed and to keep an DNA-databank both for free. Sonja Bognarova will publish the informations as soon as she recieves the Slovakian translation (!!) in most languages here on wolfdog.org. As always everything took more time as planned. Ina