"Suspicious" dogs list

elf · 27-10-2008, 10:23

Sorry for the word suspicous, that's why I quoted.
An example, it's said in a previous message that "Orlik z Rosíkova" is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems in CzW. These kind of information is important to avoid linebreeding or strong linebreeding in "suspicious" dogs, what would it take to have a kind of list got from breeders experiences ? Mouth to ear talk is good but at some point it's not bad to have something documented that could be useful for next breeders generation.

Mikael · 27-10-2008, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Sorry for the word suspicous, that's why I quoted.
An example, it's said in a previous message that "Orlik z Rosíkova" is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems in CzW. These kind of information is important to avoid linebreeding or strong linebreeding in "suspicious" dogs, what would it take to have a kind of list got from breeders experiences ? Mouth to ear talk is good but at some point it's not bad to have something documented that could be useful for next breeders generation.

Yes I think it would be good to know this info too,
but only if it is based on 100% proof not suspicions...

A DNA database for hereditary diseases and a worning list of inbreeding diseases, is not bad ideas, but it seams like it is only you and me Elf that are interested in this.

Hopefully in the future more breeders and oners will join us

Best regards / Mikael

michaelundinaeichhorn · 27-10-2008, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

A DNA database for hereditary diseases and a worning list of inbreeding diseases, is not bad ideas, but it seams like it is only you and me Elf that are interested in this.

Hopefully in the future more breeders and oners will join us

Did it ever occur to you that more experienced breeders/owners realize what you are asking for?
A DNA database has to be international and can´t be build up till tomorrow and I would surely not write any suspicions about any dogs into an open forum without any proof.
There have been a lot of suspicions and rumors in the past, most of them were wrong. Who has eyes to see and spends time to travel don´t need lists of suspicions.

Regards Ina

elf · 27-10-2008, 21:28

Ina, that's why I wrote documented.
About this dog-example, Margo wrote on the french forum: "Orlik z Rosíkova is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems by CzW (the breeders in origin countries a very carefull and try not to make inbreeds and in no way strong inbreeds on this dog)".
The current way these kind on informations are only available for few people, more efficient cooperation is needed. Especially for country like mine where there is no breeding commission. We currently have a strong inbreed on this dog and with easier access to information this maybe would have been avoided.

Mikael · 27-10-2008, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Did it ever occur to you that more experienced breeders/owners realize what you are asking for?
A DNA database has to be international and can´t be build up till tomorrow and I would surely not write any suspicions about any dogs into an open forum without any proof.
There have been a lot of suspicions and rumors in the past, most of them were wrong. Who has eyes to see and spends time to travel don´t need lists of suspicions.

Regards Ina

No I do not se way it has to be international, if a breeder takes DNA tests on heas dogs, he can put the results in this database together whit the HD, ED and PRA. but I agree it would be good if a CsV club was responsible fore this database.

This way it would be easier to choose an appropriate mating partner and fore the buyers to choose a healty puppy.

In the begining it will be very few dogs in this database, but whit time I think buyers will request DNA results.
And I think in the future all breeders will have to privide this data.

Yes it will take years to build up this database, but way not start now ???

Best regards / Mikael

Juniorwolf · 28-10-2008, 01:23

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think

Rolf

michaelundinaeichhorn · 28-10-2008, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think

Rolf

Exactly. And to create DNA-Tests for hereditary diseases you need DNA from as much dogs, ill ones and healthy ones, as possible. At the moment there is no DNA-test for any disease in CSW. It is not even 100% sure that the dwarf test will show the same genes as in SWH and GSH.
We till now bred with Slowakian studs, Italien studs, Hungarian studs, Czech studs and German studs. That is the reason why we need an international comparable test. And what would you like to show here on wolfdog.org? The lab registration number of the test? What sense does it make if everybody makes it´s own, not comparable test? There has to be rules how to take the blood samples, which laboratories will take it, who will store and analyse the results and so on. Otherwise the people that cheated before will cheat with the DNA as well.
DNA-tests surely will come and there will be an international agreement about ist one day, but not tomorrow.

Coming back to the suspicions. Do you really think that Margo (sorry Margo, I just take you for an example

) said this and there is a rumor is a proof? Imagine someone ill minded would say your dog has some heriditary problems and others follow him and your dog comes on this privately kept list. This has been done before many times. There will be no help from DNA test for open hair.

Ina

27-10-2008, 10:23	#1
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	"Suspicious" dogs list Sorry for the word suspicous, that's why I quoted. An example, it's said in a previous message that "Orlik z Rosíkova" is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems in CzW. These kind of information is important to avoid linebreeding or strong linebreeding in "suspicious" dogs, what would it take to have a kind of list got from breeders experiences ? Mouth to ear talk is good but at some point it's not bad to have something documented that could be useful for next breeders generation.

27-10-2008, 21:28	#4
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Ina, that's why I wrote documented. About this dog-example, Margo wrote on the french forum: "Orlik z Rosíkova is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems by CzW (the breeders in origin countries a very carefull and try not to make inbreeds and in no way strong inbreeds on this dog)". The current way these kind on informations are only available for few people, more efficient cooperation is needed. Especially for country like mine where there is no breeding commission. We currently have a strong inbreed on this dog and with easier access to information this maybe would have been avoided.

28-10-2008, 01:23	#6
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ? How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ? To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ? And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ? Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know). As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think Rolf