Czech Mutara-Gate - Page 5

z Peronówki · 12-10-2004, 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

I read this question on the Czech Forum and it is true: how they want to check whether the "healty" genes of a Canadian Wolf are dominant if they mate a wolf with HEALTY dogs (and wolfdogs)? If they really want to make an research they have to mate HEALTY wolf with a dog with strong HD. After it they can see if the next generations are healty (it means genes of a wolf are really helpful) or not (it means wolfsblood don't help with fighting with HD).

The author of this question asked Hartl about it. The answer was: they used HD-free wolf and HD-free mix because offspring of such parents fits better for breeding with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Simply said: it is another proof (this time already from Hartl) that it is not an experiment because they do not care to make any scientific work. They just want to have mixes which they will use to breed with CzWs...

standsalone · 20-10-2004, 03:06

It would be wise to consider that breeding of wild wolves is based on natural selection and genetic defects would likely not arise in the wolf population due to this fact. Only the strong and healthy survive in the harsh environment. Therefore only the strong and healthy subsequently mate. Wolves are not inherently immune to the genetic defects that afflict the domestic dog.

In breeding domestic dogs, out-crossing can have many benefits, but only if you know the genetic factors you are adding to the gene pool. So here is the problem, it has been stated that Armin is a GSD, it is obvious to anyone familiar with the breed that he is not. It has been stated that Armin is a Czech Wolfdog, it is obvious to most that he is not, and even if he were, he would be one of the poorest examples of the breed now established.

However, it would not be surprising to find that he is an F1, F2, or F3 wolfcross, or even a mix with malamute. The only reason one could find for using this dog for breeding in the Czech bloodlines is to out-cross to broaden the existing gene pool to either help eliminate or prevent future genetic defects. This would only be a benefit if there were known genetic factors, but instead there are too many unknowns. This can only lead one to believe it was done for purely personal reasons.

These offspring are only going to move the breed backwards and not forward. Are there no quality Czech Wolfdogs that could have been used to out-cross to a wolf? Wouldn’t that have made more sense to the community? If what they really needed to do was add new wolf blood to the breed, which in itself is still highly debatable.

When developing a breed it is important to have the largest genetic pool possible, but unfortunately human intervention prevents natural selection, and eventually every domesticated breed has its own problems to deal with. The only recourse one has is to provide strict breeding guidelines, but even then, judgments and opinions even from veterinary staff are subjective.

Breeders often breed dogs they shouldn’t and there are innumerable reasons why they do. Welcome to the world of domestic dogs. Standards are written to help breeders breed the ideal of their breed. Not many dogs will ever measure up 100% to the standards, but that is what you need to strive for. Breeding dogs with faults may result in some offspring not visually possessing them, but those faults are still there in their genes just waiting to come out.

Responsible breeders do not breed dogs with known genetic defects or faults, but then I have found that there are a lot of irresponsible people in the dog world. I had a female Great Pyrenees that was the most beautiful bitch anyone had ever seen. She was perfect in conformation. I did not show her. I took her with me to the shows and was asked many times by nervous exhibiters if I was showing her and a sigh of relief when I said no. She had a defect, her temperament was not good (would bite children) and she had a littermate that also had a temperament problem, so I knew it was genetic, and I knew I would not show or breed her.

When you wrap all your hopes into an animal, not to mention a lot of money, it is disappointing to say the least, but when you love your breed, you have to choose to do what is right for the breed, not what is right for yourself. I had to stop showing and breeding Great Pyrenees because there were not very many breeders like myself, and over time they were showing and breeding dogs that were not even close to the standard, could have even been a different breed altogether, and judges seemed to be unfamiliar with the breed standard. It was very disheartening to see the breed ruined.

If you can move breeders into DNA testing it can only help the Czech Wolfdog and prevent fraudulent registrations in the future. It may also be a selling point for a prospective buyer, so defraying the cost to the buyer, which would be minimal, would not be questionable. This is done with certain horse breeds all the time.

I say all this from the point of view of a prospective owner. I hope to one day be graced by a Czech Wolfdog. I have also owned a wolfdog, or what you might refer to as a hybrid, 87% wolf, timber and arctic with Malamute and GSD thrown into the mix, she probably could have passed for a Czech Wolfdog, but that would not have made her one. She was beautiful, but that is not the point is it?

I'd like to thank Margo and everyone who has been involved with uncovering the truth and getting it out in the open.

Respectfully,

Standsalone

Koos · 25-10-2004, 14:09

Hallo Standalone,

Maybe you have read several answers from me in which I mentioned the DNA test.
You mentioned the DNA test allso. All of our CW's with we breeding with are tested for DNA but not every breeder is interesting in it. But in the case of Mutara it seems it will be necessary to do it for in the future.
I hope, that other breeders will follow us and let testing their dogs. Then you will be sure that you will have a real CW.

Letty

20-10-2004, 03:06	#82
standsalone Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5	It would be wise to consider that breeding of wild wolves is based on natural selection and genetic defects would likely not arise in the wolf population due to this fact. Only the strong and healthy survive in the harsh environment. Therefore only the strong and healthy subsequently mate. Wolves are not inherently immune to the genetic defects that afflict the domestic dog. In breeding domestic dogs, out-crossing can have many benefits, but only if you know the genetic factors you are adding to the gene pool. So here is the problem, it has been stated that Armin is a GSD, it is obvious to anyone familiar with the breed that he is not. It has been stated that Armin is a Czech Wolfdog, it is obvious to most that he is not, and even if he were, he would be one of the poorest examples of the breed now established. However, it would not be surprising to find that he is an F1, F2, or F3 wolfcross, or even a mix with malamute. The only reason one could find for using this dog for breeding in the Czech bloodlines is to out-cross to broaden the existing gene pool to either help eliminate or prevent future genetic defects. This would only be a benefit if there were known genetic factors, but instead there are too many unknowns. This can only lead one to believe it was done for purely personal reasons. These offspring are only going to move the breed backwards and not forward. Are there no quality Czech Wolfdogs that could have been used to out-cross to a wolf? Wouldn’t that have made more sense to the community? If what they really needed to do was add new wolf blood to the breed, which in itself is still highly debatable. When developing a breed it is important to have the largest genetic pool possible, but unfortunately human intervention prevents natural selection, and eventually every domesticated breed has its own problems to deal with. The only recourse one has is to provide strict breeding guidelines, but even then, judgments and opinions even from veterinary staff are subjective. Breeders often breed dogs they shouldn’t and there are innumerable reasons why they do. Welcome to the world of domestic dogs. Standards are written to help breeders breed the ideal of their breed. Not many dogs will ever measure up 100% to the standards, but that is what you need to strive for. Breeding dogs with faults may result in some offspring not visually possessing them, but those faults are still there in their genes just waiting to come out. Responsible breeders do not breed dogs with known genetic defects or faults, but then I have found that there are a lot of irresponsible people in the dog world. I had a female Great Pyrenees that was the most beautiful bitch anyone had ever seen. She was perfect in conformation. I did not show her. I took her with me to the shows and was asked many times by nervous exhibiters if I was showing her and a sigh of relief when I said no. She had a defect, her temperament was not good (would bite children) and she had a littermate that also had a temperament problem, so I knew it was genetic, and I knew I would not show or breed her. When you wrap all your hopes into an animal, not to mention a lot of money, it is disappointing to say the least, but when you love your breed, you have to choose to do what is right for the breed, not what is right for yourself. I had to stop showing and breeding Great Pyrenees because there were not very many breeders like myself, and over time they were showing and breeding dogs that were not even close to the standard, could have even been a different breed altogether, and judges seemed to be unfamiliar with the breed standard. It was very disheartening to see the breed ruined. If you can move breeders into DNA testing it can only help the Czech Wolfdog and prevent fraudulent registrations in the future. It may also be a selling point for a prospective buyer, so defraying the cost to the buyer, which would be minimal, would not be questionable. This is done with certain horse breeds all the time. I say all this from the point of view of a prospective owner. I hope to one day be graced by a Czech Wolfdog. I have also owned a wolfdog, or what you might refer to as a hybrid, 87% wolf, timber and arctic with Malamute and GSD thrown into the mix, she probably could have passed for a Czech Wolfdog, but that would not have made her one. She was beautiful, but that is not the point is it? I'd like to thank Margo and everyone who has been involved with uncovering the truth and getting it out in the open. Respectfully, Standsalone

25-10-2004, 14:09	#83
Koos Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 731	Hallo Standalone, Maybe you have read several answers from me in which I mentioned the DNA test. You mentioned the DNA test allso. All of our CW's with we breeding with are tested for DNA but not every breeder is interesting in it. But in the case of Mutara it seems it will be necessary to do it for in the future. I hope, that other breeders will follow us and let testing their dogs. Then you will be sure that you will have a real CW. Letty