wolf percentage

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by tikaani

i think we have gone a bit if topic here/ it was only how dilouted the wolf blood percentage would be after severall generations, to help convince local council about them, but as usual it seems to have moved on to havin a go at people and not the designated topic, im graitfull for all the help but if people wish to discuse sertain kenals and there practacise please start youe own topics on the subject. thank you

Coming back to your original topic, as several people told you there is no way to find out how diluted the wolfblood will be as long as you only cross purebred CSW. This is a little bit special situation in this breed because if you normally talk of hybrids there are always a mixture of wolf with several breeds and even in the so called "breed" of AWD there are still wolfes used for crossing or different dogbreeds. CSW and SWH are as recognised breeds at least theoretically not longer mixed with other dogs or wolfes. That is a completely different situation. It is not possible to find out a dilllution in this case. There are countries like Australia that only ask for the F5-Generation.
I personally think the best way for this countries is to show that CSW are working dogs that are able to be trained for different uses.
We have several dogs with rescue-dog exams from the Swiss-Mountain-Rescue now in Germany (two of my own dogs too by the way) and we found out that if you talk about this possibility and show the dogs on those workshops you have two positive results: People realise that there are good working dogs in this breed what differs them from hybrids and the people getting attracted to the dogs are different ones to the ones that only want them for their look. Though it isn´t the reason for us to join this training, rescue work is a very positive seen work that makes the dog less dangerous in the view of the people and CSW really like this kind of work and are mostly very good in it.
I think Per Olavs way to show what the breed is able to do is on long terms the best way to get it accepted in those countries.
I definetly can say that all times our CSW showed up on those workshops or on their film-dog work they got very positive feed back of all people working with dogs and very many had a totally different view of them before.

Ina

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Coming back to your original topic, as several people told you there is no way to find out how diluted the wolfblood will be as long as you only cross purebred CSW. This is a little bit special situation in this breed because if you normally talk of hybrids there are always a mixture of wolf with several breeds and even in the so called "breed" of AWD there are still wolfes used for crossing or different dogbreeds. CSW and SWH are as recognised breeds at least theoretically not longer mixed with other dogs or wolfes. That is a completely different situation. It is not possible to find out a dilllution in this case. There are countries like Australia that only ask for the F5-Generation.
I personally think the best way for this countries is to show that CSW are working dogs that are able to be trained for different uses.
We have several dogs with rescue-dog exams from the Swiss-Mountain-Rescue now in Germany (two of my own dogs too by the way) and we found out that if you talk about this possibility and show the dogs on those workshops you have two positive results: People realise that there are good working dogs in this breed what differs them from hybrids and the people getting attracted to the dogs are different ones to the ones that only want them for their look. Though it isn´t the reason for us to join this training, rescue work is a very positive seen work that makes the dog less dangerous in the view of the people and CSW really like this kind of work and are mostly very good in it.
I think Per Olavs way to show what the breed is able to do is on long terms the best way to get it accepted in those countries.
I definetly can say that all times our CSW showed up on those workshops or on their film-dog work they got very positive feed back of all people working with dogs and very many had a totally different view of them before.

Ina

Yes I think you are right, ones you show people way Wolf was mixt into the breed and they understand it is not fore the look, but fore the distance of runing, tracking, there intelligence and indipendent thinking they start to look at the breed in a different way.

Hronec and I will go are first tracking course this autmn, but we stated hes training a long time ago when he was only 13 weeks old. Only smal distance and fore fun of course.

But If DEFRA wont to compare CsV whit AWD they are in my opinion to count in the same way, and by count the US way CsV are not more than 1,56-2,3 % pure Wolf Blood.

But in my opinion non of the mathematical systems are correct.

Regards / Mikael & Hronec

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Y

But in my opinion non of the mathematical systems are correct.

Regards / Mikael & Hronec

It can´t be correct because there is no possible way to count wolf genes of crosses out of the pairing of crosses.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Mikael

But If DEFRA wont to compare CsV whit AWD they are in my opinion to count in the same way, and by count the US way CsV are not more than 1,56-2,3 % pure Wolf Blood.

Mikael I think you are mistaken, in the history of breeding of CSW, after the F3 generation most of the pairing was between CSW, not back to GSD (and there were actually also couple of pairings back to wolves Argo, Sarik and F1 Kazan). The "blood percentage" is indeed around 25% in all CSW, but of course due to rigorous selection the CSW do not behave as typical 25% wolf-content "hybrids" would.

--- End of response to Mikael ---

The wolf-blood content is a number saying something meaningful only to the lovers of Jack London (I am still proudly one of them) and other romantic literature, it is something we like about our dogs, as we love their looks, but any responsible owner and breeder still puts at least as much (if not more) stress on the dog's character and behavior.

Other than that, no sane person uses this number, just as no sane person counts how much blood of Atilla the Hun is in any Hungarian. Physical and character traits are after all not passed from generation to generation by blood, but by oocytes and sperm.

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by saschia

Other than that, no sane person uses this number, just as no sane person counts how much blood of Atilla the Hun is in any Hungarian. Physical and character traits are after all not passed from generation to generation by blood, but by oocytes and sperm.

LOL - Yes!

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by saschia

Mikael I think you are mistaken, in the history of breeding of CSW, after the F3 generation most of the pairing was between CSW, not back to GSD (and there were actually also couple of pairings back to wolves Argo, Sarik and F1 Kazan). The "blood percentage" is indeed around 25% in all CSW, but of course due to rigorous selection the CSW do not behave as typical 25% wolf-content "hybrids" would.

Yes you are right I was wrong according to the US mathematical system the CsV are 3,12-4,68 % Wolf blood !!!

But I think you are wrong to , when mixing a F3 whit Wolf you are not at generation 4 (F4) you are back at generation 1 from Wolf (F1), but this Generation 1 (F1) has more Wolf blood than a normal F1 Hybrid.


Quote
Author: Pavel, Translation: Mirkawolf
"The CzW is crossbreed of german shepherd and a carpatian wolf. Next generations after this crossbreeding have only codes F1-F4 (F1 is the first generation with 50% of wolf's blood, F2-F4 are just generations crosbreeded with german shepherd only). The finall generation is the 5th with less than 25% of wolf's blood, this generation is CzW. Simply is possible to say, that the CzW must have about 30% of wolf's blood. All other crossbreed are not CsV, but F1-F4 and this individuals are not part of FCI recognised breed."

I think the text by Pavel is correkt if you are back at F1 when crossing a F3 whit a Wolf again, and if crossing CsV whit CsV that are for example F4 there litter is also F4. or am I wrong ???

But I don´t understand how the Wolf blood can be as high as 25%-30% if the F1 is 50% Wolfblood = Wolf 100% X Dog 0% = 100/2=50% Wolfblood.

The US matematical system for Wolfblood works like this to, but than according to this system the CsV are to be only 3,12-4,68%.

PLEASE explain how they count out the CsV breed Wolf bood anybody !!!

This is how the US system works I think...

Wolf=100% Wolf Blood and Dog = 0% Wolf blood.
add together the Wolf blood percetage of each parent =100x0=100, then divide by two to get the Wolf blood of the litter, 100/2= 50% Wolf blood at generation 1 (F1).

So as I understand it must be like this...

Generation 1 (F1) = 50% Wolf blood
Generation 2 (F2) = 25% Wolf blood
Generation 3 (F3) = 12,5%Wolf blood
Generation 4 (F4) = 6,25% Wolf blood
Generation 5 (F5) = 3,12% Wolf blood CsV wery little Wolf Content Wolfdog.

Or if you mix a F1 whit Wolf like on Blood Line 4 the new F1 litter is 75% Wolf blood = High Contant Wolfdog.

Generation 1 (F1) = 75% Wolf blood
Generation 2 (F2) = 37,5% Wolf blood
Generation 3 (F3) = 18,75% Wolf blood
Generation 4 (F4) = 9,37% Wolf blood
Generation 5 (F5) = 4,68% Wolf blood CsV wery little Wolf Contant Wolfdog.

But the real problem according to me is that there are Clubs and gowernment compering the number of Wolf blood between CsV and AWD, when (we) aperantley do not count the same way in Europe and US. or are (we) and I´m missing something ???

Wery Best Regards / Mikael

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Generation 1 (F1) = 50% Wolf blood
Generation 2 (F2) = 25% Wolf blood
Generation 3 (F3) = 12,5%Wolf blood
Generation 4 (F4) = 6,25% Wolf blood
Generation 5 (F5) = 3,12% Wolf blood CsV wery little Wolf Content Wolfdog.

This works only if you take wolf and several GSD and then cross the wolf with one GSD, cross the F1 with second GSD, cross the F2 with another GSD and so on. BUT the crossing of CSW was different. I don't remember it exactly, but I know that there were CSW/GSD and CSW/wolf crossing later, and lot of F3/F3 pairings, or CSW/F3 pairings (if by CSW you understand >F3) etc., so you cannot calculate linearly. For example, my first bitch had wolf in the 4th generation (directly in the paper pedigree) twice and three times in the 5th generation, always as a pair to a CSW or F3 bitch. Unfortunately now the database does not work completely and I don't have complete pedigrees available, but otherwise you would be able to see that it indeed does have quite a lot of wolf blood, because the last wolf was added later than the last GSD.

But as I said before, all these numbers do not mean anything real. It only means that for example if there is a gene which is completely unique for wolf, which every wolf has and no dog has, that a 20% content CSW has a 20% probability that it has the same gene, and that is valid only if there was absolutely no selection (natural or by breeders) for or against this gene. If the creators of the breed liked this gene, than CSW has very high probability that it has the gene (like light eyes, good coat, etc), if not, than it has low probability (shyness, inability to communicate with strange people).

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Generation 1 (F1) = 50% Wolf blood
Generation 2 (F2) = 25% Wolf blood
Generation 3 (F3) = 12,5%Wolf blood
Generation 4 (F4) = 6,25% Wolf blood
Generation 5 (F5) = 3,12% Wolf blood CsV wery little Wolf Content Wolfdog.

Mikael, your example only works if you mate
F1, F2, F3 ... + dogs without wolfblood
but not
F1, F2, F3 ... + CsW
or
CsW + CsW
cheers
Angelika

[Angelika]

Sorry, Saschia, I did not see your post.

[Mikael]

Tanks fore the ansers

It looks like there is no easy anser on hove to count CsV Wolf Blood

the AWD system in US is easy but do not work, typical

But than Pavel are probablay right 25-30% Wolfblood it is.
But please tell me hove eaven if it is not easy

Regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Angelika

Mikael, your example only works if you mate
F1, F2, F3 ... + dogs without wolfblood
but not
F1, F2, F3 ... + CsW
or
CsW + CsW
cheers
Angelika

Hello

I fund this exampel in a book about AWD Wolfdogs, so it seams thay count like that atleast in the US, when mating AWD whit AWD.

Quote from Living whit Wolfdogs by Nicole Wild, side nr 12.

"For example, a 75% wolfdog mated to a 25 % wolfdog would produse pups that are 50% wolf, since 75 plus 25 equals 100, divided by two equals 50."

Regards / Mikael

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Mikael

"For example, a 75% wolfdog mated to a 25 % wolfdog would produse pups that are 50% wolf, since 75 plus 25 equals 100, divided by two equals 50."

... and if you tell me the result of mating this 50 % AWD with a 75 % AWD you´ve got it, but - as everybody told before - it´s nothing else but maths

hälsning
Angelika

[elf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Tanks fore the ansers

It looks like there is no easy anser on hove to count CsV Wolf Blood

the AWD system in US is easy but do not work, typical

But than Pavel are probablay right 25-30% Wolfblood it is.
But please tell me hove eaven if it is not easy

Regards / Mikael

Some examples for you, it's in french but maths are maths:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...91&postcount=6
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=12

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by elf

Some examples for you, it's in french but maths are maths:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...91&postcount=6
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=12

Thanks fore all the Maths elf ang Philippe

So as I understand if this Maths are Correct some CsV from Blood Line 1 for emample the F5 dogs was only 3,12 % Wolf blood, and some eaven less the G7 had only 0,78 %

Some udder Blood lines had much more but I can not se any CsV at Generation 5 that realy has as much as 25-30%.

I do not understand French that well, am I missing something ???
Or is it safe to say that 25-30% Wolf blood are a over exaggeration and the real Wolf blood on a CsV are closer to 5 or 10% ???

Maby Philippe can anser this question in English ???

To every body
Please do not get me wrong I know it is only maths, but sens the Wolf blood is printed in text and some people / government look at thise numbers as Facts it is important that it is as correct as possible.

Regads / Mikael

[GalomyOak]

I think the exact percentage, or more specifically the generations removed (away) from a wolf would be different for each CSV litter, unless a mating was repeated between 2 parents. Litters with lineage where an F1 was more recent (such as descendents of Kazan, I think) would maybe have a little more? There was a lot of line-breeding early on, so this would also have an impact.

Of course, specific genes are different within each puppy (just a like a human brother and sister with brown hair and blonde hair), even in the same litter, so the only real way to know would be to perform a DNA test on every CSV in the world.

[saschia]

yes, but even if you do complete sequencing, you still don't know what it means, if you do not know the function of the genes...
You can take for example three breeds - Owczarek Podhalanski, Kuvasz and Slovak Cuvac. If you genotype them, you would probably get quite nice differences, because they are three separate breeds which went through different bottlenecks and fixed different polymorphisms. But if you look at their character and exterior, you have three very similar dogs. On the other hand, if you had three different types of the same breed, like toy, middle and large poodle, if you genotyped them in the same time since their separation as the three previous breeds after their bottlenecks, you would get much less genetic difference, although you can clearly see physical difference (and maybe even character difference).

Again, you will get a number, which is actually interesting from the scientific and veterinary points of view, but this number still doesn't mean anything valuable from the point of authorities. It cannot persuade them that the dogs are reliable in human society, if they don't want to believe that and it cannot be used to say that the dog is actually dangerous for the society.