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Clubs & law Information about CzW clubs in other countries, law concerning CzW and Kennel CLub regulations...

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Old 01-08-2002, 18:13   #21
stefano
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to 'monitorize' the breed.

Arnaldo asked me to translate this letter full of
technical words and complex phrases for you.
Please pardon my eventual errors.

Stefano.

P.S.: Arnaldo is the breeder of my Ronny.
-------------------------------------------

Who can understand italian can read in the site of the
italian club that it has been an encounter and
presumably others will follow, in which has been
guaranteed that neither INFS neither CITES (official
agencies ...) therefore nobody of the Ministry of the
Ambient mind to eliminate the CzW.

They want to "monitorize" it and they ask
collaboration to the Club.

They want to do a protocol for the protection of both,
the wild wolf and the CzW from the "worse" breeders.

These in extreme synthesis the facts.

It follows my comment, short, I promise it.

The problem has to be seen before, before any
hypothesis of agreement between the parts: why to
"monitorize" the CzW?

I would like to see the sure documentation of the
"dangerousness" of the CzW for the wild Italian Wolf.

I wish that these argomentations were discussed in the
opportune center to the presence of persons highly
competent and characterized, cinotechnics at least
(Dog Technician).

And still we haven't to forget that the agency for the
protection of the dog breeds is ENCI that head to the
Ministry for the Agricultural political.

Without its direct involvement therefore, the issue
cannot surely be resolved between a Club not still
recognized and one or more agencies that made
reference to the Min. of the Ambient.

Only from a comparison that represents the plurality
of the competences, I believe, the clear contours of
the issue can appear in their scientific, cinotecnic,
political and economic meaning.

And yes, it's because of the money from UE for the
protection of the wild fauna (for sure it doesn't
exist for the protection of the dog breeds) and for
sure the allocation of such founds is a political fact
that interests many people.

The realization of the protocol between the Club and
these agencies would be therefore a limit, misleading
and above all it would accept and sanction of this
fact: the CzW is dangerous for the wild italian wolf
and therefore it has to be held under control.

Imagine what a concept ...!

Hello to all.

Arnaldo.
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Old 02-08-2002, 08:35   #22
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to

I can't help, but i personally think, that all this investigation happens, because CSVs are getting more popular
in Italy, which probably doesn't help much to promote their own hybrids.

Mirka
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Old 02-08-2002, 08:57   #23
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Training of CSV

For myself i can say, i am using "the old method" (which probably means that i don't use modern "clicker" training and such stuff).
But it doesn't mean i beat my dog for every bad thing.
I am giving rewards (mostly meat, sometimes just voice cheering) for all my dog does well, and i "punish" the bad manner (usually with voice, in the worst case small punch). I truly do not think, that if my wolfdogs is going to kill neighbours poodle (who deserves it for provocating the wolfdog in every possible case), that just ignoring the bad would help. In cases like this must come a strict command and immediate punch, if it doesn't help.
I really doubt, that i'd teach my dog some commands before end of its life, if don't make him to do them. It's very nice to be patient and be cool and kind with the dog, but on the other side, if i want the dog to jump over a bench, then it will do it. Not that i will wait half a year, before the dog suddenly decides about doing it.
I explain the dog what i want him to do, i help him to do it (shaping the body, showing reward etc.), but as long as the dog learns the command, i insist on the command being done every time i give it.
But this is probably individual. I consider my wolfdog for a working dog, and i train it like that. We just passed our first tests, so seems to me i am training my dog well.

Mirka
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Old 02-08-2002, 09:53   #24
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to

Quote:
I can´t help, but i personally think, that all this investigation happens, because CSVs are getting more popular in Italy, which probably doesn´t help much to promote their own hybrids.
Mirka
I can´t help, but i personally think, that this
thought remains, because probably I speak Uzbeck.

THEY DON'T WANT TO PROMOTE THEIR OWN HYBRIDS!

Ezio and Arnaldo are talking about the wild wolf.

Stefano.
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Old 02-08-2002, 10:06   #25
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to

If they are talking about wild wolf, which i am not that sure, then all this discussion
is absolutely insane, and i am really getting bored by this topic.
No one here will rename the breed, no one will stop to breed them and sell them
to italian owners, if they want to buy them.
To threaten the wolf population can any dog big and strong enough to survive outside
and enter a wolf pack. No need to talk about it more. It=B4s endless.
We all should really concentrate better on explaining the public, what CSV, Saarloos
and wolf are, their real character and how to deal with them.

Mirka
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:09   #26
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Nice pics, Ann. What breed is Xena?

Sanna
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:22   #27
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to

what is sad, is that i said this already many times here ..
btw .. did you all got my mail from yesterday, with the link to yahoo to the info boards about wolves in our ZOO?

Mirka
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:26   #28
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to

Mirka,

Looking at the discussions, people dindt pick up on what is proposed, so I
go local, good luck,

Jeffrey
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:27   #29
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"To threaten the wolf population can any dog big and strong enough to survive outside
and enter a wolf pack."

I am glad that someone has realized that it's not what name the breed has, but the competence of the individual that matters here. Any dog who has enough of the wolf left in their mind and body (i.e. not enough manipulated by man) can survive in the wild and be part of a wild canid pack, wolves or not.

Sanna
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:43   #30
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Default At last.

I'm happy that you have finally formally guaranteed
that this theory underwrited by the Italian Club of
the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is absurd.

Thanks.

Stefano.
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Old 02-08-2002, 11:51   #31
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Default At last.

what a pity, that the same idea didn't have the person, who started all this..

Mirka
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Old 02-08-2002, 12:34   #32
stefano
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Default At last.

For us it's important to find consents to the
absurdity of all this.

Surely not to find other indefensible motivations as
the correlation of all this with the Italian hybrid.

The real pity is that nobody has the same idea but the
imperturbable Italian Club of the Czechoslovakian
Wolfdog gave recently its disponibility to collaborate
in this project.

Stefano.
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Old 02-08-2002, 15:58   #33
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to

btw .. did you all got my mail from yesterday, with the link to yahoo to the info boards about wolves in our ZOO?
NO, MAYBE YOU CAN GIVE IT ONE MORE TIME?

TNX
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Old 02-08-2002, 16:21   #34
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ok, here it goes http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/mirkawolf...Vlci&.view=3Dt

Mirka
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Old 02-08-2002, 20:43   #35
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Who is the puppy in the photos?

Sanna
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Old 05-08-2002, 08:22   #36
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It's European wolf puppy, about 7 weeks old on the pics.

Mirka
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Old 05-08-2002, 08:32   #37
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The home (base) club for CSW are two, and they are equal - one in Slovakia and one in Czech Republic.
The patronate over the breed was given to Slovakia, though, on changing anything in the standard or
very important things touching the breed must agree both clubs.
Then there of course exist clubs of CW in another countries (Italia for example). But they are not participating
on shaping the breed itself. If they do their own policies, that i dunno, but it would be insane. They can do
what they want, but they can=B4t go against the standard of the breed. At least so i think and hope.
This would know better somebody from the management of the Club here in CR.

Every owner is not automatically member. You have to apply and pay some small membership fee
to become member. Members of the club are informed about the club dog shows, bonitations and other
club events. You also must be member of the club, if you want to produce pedigree puppies.
Being a member or not is only up to your own decision.

Mirka
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Old 05-08-2002, 16:53   #38
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Quote:
What about different habits and tradition for treating "macho" dogs? Here in Sweden lots of the GSD and Rotweiler people treat and train their dogs either not at all or quite dominantly, with very little knowledge of wolves or dogs in general and their needs and behavior.
I think that our CW are far from "macho dogs" and they can=B4t be trained like that. Or explain me what is "macho dog".
What I refer to as "macho" is often considered GSD (or Alsatian Wolfdog , Rotweiler, Wolfdogs, "Hybrids", sometimes Mastiffs and their likes and by some Pit Bull. It=B4s not what I think, but what some people with low self confidence would expect from these types of dogs, most of them with no or low knowledge of anything that has to do with animals.

Quote:
Very likely. The lack of competence in our dogowners is severe. But that would mean that Czech dogowners would be more aware of the importance of this, and I wonder what would be the explanation of that? What can we do to learn from the Czechs?
I think that every dog needs attention and training. The problem is that when golden retriever has lack of attention and training, it won=B4t be probably that visible and it won=B4t form that much his final character, like it would at CW. If the owners of CW here are more aware or not, this i can=B4t say. But here we make a lot of meetings, events, the summer camp, we meet at different competitions and tests. At all these places the owners meet and they can discuss the problems. We also try to manage to keep somehow in contact with the owners of CW around us, to meet and train together etc.
For example, i live in Plzen, so i know almost all wolfdog owners in Plzen and around (some owners do not want to co-operate), and we all visit the same training place, or we meet at some occasions. With most of them we are good friends and we visit each other often. When there come a new puppy to the area, i am informed about it by Pavel or by the breeder and i contact them and offer help and advices of all of us, i offer the chance to meet and to visit the training place.
This sounds like music to me. This is how it always should be (with all dogs), but probably it=B4s easier to manage this much contact when the breed is quite small.

Quote:
And that is a fact for any breed, I would say...that far from the wolf isn=B4t any dog. We would have much less problemdogs altogether with more knowledge and interest of breeders and owners. People looking for a puppy should be more careful of choosing the right breeder than they usually are, probably due to lack of competence with the future dogowner. My oppinion is that the Kennel Clubs and/or authorities unfortunately aren=B4t enough concerned with educating, controlling and following up the breeders nor enlighten dog owners, maybe because they themselves lack in competence?
I think that every future owner of any kind of dog, should inform himself first about all the pluses and minuses of the choosen breed, about it=B4s needs, about how to train it, so that he can see if he=B4s able to own such dog.
If i want to buy car, i must have driving licence first. If i want to have dog, i must know how to take care of it.
But it's sad that it's so hard to get any response for introducing a "drivers licence" for dogs...this should not be optional when you buy at least breed puppies.

Lots of people buy CW because it looks like wolf, but they have absolutely no idea about what it needs and how to treat it.

This is what I meant with "macho" dogs...people who want to rise the status with a "fierce" looking dog.

If they don't get help and advice, they most likely will rise shy and problematic dog, which will end in some rescue center, or at the best will return to it's breeder.

Here, they would most likely be put asleep quite soon.

This i can't agree at all. Maybe it can work with GSD, to start to train it in two years, but never with CW. The wolfdog is the most receptive to training up to his first year of age. So the socialisation and training (according to age of the puppy) must start immediately after getting the puppy.

But this is exactly what I mean - YOU as a owner MUST start immediately when you get the puppy, but this isn't enough - if the breeder hasn't been competent the first two months of the puppy's life (wich is most essential) can spoil a lot to my opinion.

Maybe here is the problem? That some owners wait for the "good time to start" so long, that they miss the best period?

This is very common, at least here. I don't know of many owners who doesn't whait until the class at the dog club starts...which can be several months ahead...they simply doesn't understand that they need to be a pack leader from the start.

Sanna
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Old 05-08-2002, 18:40   #39
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Ann,

Quote:
Is there a parent club for each country then? Does each country make
their own policies regarding the breed?
There is a SWH club in Belgium, Germany, Holland and I think in France to.
If You want more info you can mail me .

Roger.
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Old 08-08-2002, 17:20   #40
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I have been following this discussion with a great interest, and I believe
Mirkas statement is one of the most important ones.
The basic foundation on the topic of raising a CSV is knowledge, and a CSV
owner without this may course severe damage to the reputation of this
wonderful breed.
In my opinion the breeder should at least be able to communicate with his
of her buyer in one language or another in order to help and advice.
Secondly a CSV owner should have the ability of following this group or
another of the mailing lists created by the wolfdog.org :-)
To my deep concern this is not always so. And this might be disastrous to
the breed.

---
Per Olav
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