HD results

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Margo

There are over 1600 HD results in the database. About 1200 dogs are still living. But only 200 of them have the result HD-C, HD-D and HD-E....

Thanks Margo

As I did suspect, it will not be easy if we will need 500 results...
Hopefully Tanja is right and we will need less ???

Best regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Margo

PS. We made something more important - we collect information who made the x-rays. So in the new database you will have information not only about the results but also the name of the vet who checked it.

And extra important I think, if it is a vet or a HD committee

Regards / Mikael

[Hanka]

Hello Margo, thanks for answer about technical problems. Yes, I had seen some dogs with elbow problems on bonitations. Maybe can be good to open disscussion about elbow rtg for all czech dogs- for breeding.
Ina- I will be in Bratislava too, we can speak about it too.
Daiva- why do you mean I will measure or comment any your fotos? No, I will not .
I like, the people can write about this problem...I want read some other ideas too......
Yes, everybody can give one this foto (X-ray) to normal gallery too, I know.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Mikael

And extra important I think, if it is a vet or a HD committee

Regards / Mikael

The most important thing is if it is a vet that has a special and repeated training in this work or if it is any vet that can take a x-ray. And if the systhem is that those vets judge some breeds or any breeds because there are differences.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Daiva- why do you mean I will measure or comment any your fotos? No, I will not .
.

And I wait for this style reply thanks Hanka.

p.s. Hanka if You say - "I see dogs with elbow problems in CZ" maybe better make this ED examination for all breed dogs in CZ, in others country this is make, and we know only max ED 1 cann to breed, but better when dog have ED 0.
In this case Not exist good reproductors in CZ (not all, I special check yet data basa)- this dogs not have ED test. And this for me is moore important not who make HD or are rtg skan in galery or not.

[wolfin]

Hanka, maybe You know and cann say: why in CZ people and You not make ED when make HD examination in this same thime? I see dogs who have and HD and ED but moore dogs from You kennel or others big kennel not have this. Thanks for reply.

[Hanka]

hello Daiva. But every big new thing, condition for breeding, etc. must go over konference of club. And it will not be this year. We have more new things what we want to do. But we can´t do it from one day to second day. Because we have democration and every member must know about new things and every member can vote if he wants it or no. i hope it will be.
It is easy to breed in country where is not club or 5 members in club . But we have one big club, two parts of it (for two smaller countries in Czech) and everything must "go over" two parts, two comitets, etc.
In this moment is FOR ME important to know , what male I want use for my female. Not only to read "A" and nothing more. I want see X-ray foto, I want see biting....
It was stupid idea to send me some your foto. I want see it (X-ray fotos)for me, for my private meaning. It can be good for every breeder. I don´t know why I can write you something about some your fotos.
I am not certificated expert, so my meaning is only my meaning. Good for me, for my choosing of male.

[Hanka]

We have not ED result like condition for breeding in this time. It is why dogs have not it. Maybe some yes.

[wolfin]

What is expert? I am not veterinar doctor with certificate for HD results, but I belive to my eyes and I am not stupid. I have at home ruler and scribing compass. I am breeder longer time and I know something about it.
OR
It was stupid idea to send me some your foto. I want see it (X-ray fotos)for me, for my private meaning. It can be good for every breeder. I don´t know why I can write you something about some your fotos.

In this moment is FOR ME important to know , what male I want use for my female. Not only to read "A" and nothing more. I want see X-ray foto, I want see biting...

I in Your male reklam see and this - You not believe in CZ bonitation when make bite foto. You think bonitation is not good make for Your male or others if You mas see foto? IF remember good cann see in bonitation card all info about dogs bite and teeth. You not believe in vets, not in bonitation commision. paranoic
If You interesing male for You PERSONELY female - written to this male owners and please PERSONELY about this who You wish.

We have not ED result like condition for breeding in this time. It is why dogs have not it. Maybe some yes.
hello Daiva. But every big new thing, condition for breeding, etc. must go over konference of club. And it will not be this year. We have more new things what we want to do. But we can´t do it from one day to second day. Because we have democration and every member must know about new things and every member can vote if he wants it or no. i hope it will be.
It is easy to breed in country where is not club or 5 members in club . But we have one big club, two parts of it (for two smaller countries in Czech) and everything must "go over" two parts, two comitets, etc.

hmm interesing You and others breeders make this when mas make? if not - yupieee, not make and not important maybe this dog have max ED? only reguls work. sorry...
Who You say yet is only politic "bla bla bla" when in Lithuania make first HD, ED examination for first wolfdog, we CANN breed without this, but make this and all dog have ED and HD. and ours not important who say club. This same have and Poland - he cann breed without HD ED, but make this ( not all ) and for this not mas exist club or reguls.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Hanka

It is easy to breed in country where is not club or 5 members in club

Or not...

I do not care for my own part if the new club for SWH/CsV in Sweden will say Yes or No in the question of demanding HD test for CsV, I will do both HD and ED ether way before I breed...

I just hope for the future of the CsV breed in Sweden it will be a demand

I think if you vote Yes like me, way not start where you can make a difference, in your own kennel

.............
To all

Swedens new SWH/CsV club site www.ssck.se made by Kim Storlöpare and Ninni Erlandsson. Please help us whit working photos to are new CsV gallery

Very best regards / Mikael

[saschia]

Hi folks,

there is one problem with doing things with your future stud which the local FCI doesn't require - and that is price. As it is not required, only few people want to do it, therefore the demand is low and the prices are high. It is the same with chips in Slovakia - the prices are outrageous. And as I get much lower salary than in most EU and as I cannot sell pups locally for prices like in EU but I have to pay for things almost as much as others in EU I just have to prioritize. So I chipped all my pups, as they were only 3 of them and I wanted to be sure if one gets lost it gets found easier. And I did take X-ray of Frei's elbows, as she was already sleeping and the pictures are not that expensive. But I don't have the official ED results, I just had the vet who X-rayed her look at the pictures and tell me if they are OK so that I can let my dog do crazy things (like climb trees - she does it similar to alpinists climbing rocks). And I don't know any officially good evaluator of ED in Slovakia anyway...

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Hanka

We have not ED result like condition for breeding in this time. It is why dogs have not it. Maybe some yes.

That is the same in Holland. But I’ll speak about this in health committee of the club. Maybe we can suggest owners to make HD and ED in the same time. And later on it is maybe possible to make this a condition for breeding dogs.

About HD judgement in Holland:
Only a group veterinarians who have agreement of the RVBH (Dutch kennelclub who gives pedigrees) can make the official HD X-rays.
Then a committee of specialists of RVBH, judges the x rays and the owner receives the results from them in a certificate.
On the official certificate is not only the End result of A,B,C aso.
But also these marks:

Bone deviation

Norberg value

Insufficient connection or Bad connection

Shape change

An then Final: …. Conform international FCI standard

But the number of the Noberg value is difficult to compare with numbers in other countries!
For example:
In Holland: the number of the Norberg Vallue is count by left hip number + right hip number
In Belgium: the number of Norberg Value is the ranking in % comparing with other dogs of that breed! (when a dogs has NW 30 it means: 29 dogs have worse NW results and 70 dogs have better NW results. So the average NW will be 50)

[saschia]

bit OT, but I'll post it here anyway.

the number of Norberg Value is the ranking in % comparing with other dogs of that breed! (when a dogs has NW 30 it means: 29 dogs have worse NW results and 70 dogs have better NW results. So the average NW will be 50)

I don't really get why some things are evaluated in this way. I know that it tells me right away how is my dog in comparison with the rest of the breed today, but it doesn't tell what is the overall population trend. For example if HD would be given as % of population, then my dog having 10% might be great, unless of course the mean value for population is 2 (C) with only 5% of population having clean hips.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by saschia

there is one problem with doing things with your future stud which the local FCI doesn't require - and that is price. As it is not required, only few people want to do it, therefore the demand is low and the prices are high.

You are right. It is strange but in the Eastern Europe you get less money for puppies but you have to pay much more money for every test. You know - it makes the pedigree dogs VERY precious here...

But Daiva was talking about something else. Some time ago there was the topic about bonitations. Some breeders were writing "Everybody MUST have it. It doesn't matter if you have to travel some thousands km and spent some thousands of EUR. Good breeder must make it"....
Now we are talking about ED which is much more important than the bonitation because it is about the HEALTH and the situation is getting MORE and MORE problematic as there are more and more cases of ED problems by CzW (mainly bacause people breed with ill dogs and ED seems to be VERY hereditary). And the same breeders which asked (even forced) other breeders to spent a lot of money to make the bonitation in the case of ED where they do not need to travel and the costs are very small compared to the bonitation have one answer: I do not make it because my club do not require it....

Anyway even if it will cause additional costs I will ask the clubs to think about it. Maybe at the moment nobody need to make it obligatory but it would be great to say breeders and stud dog owners that there are more and more cases of ED. And it would be good to check their dogs also for it. It would be good because I personaly removed from my private "stud dog list" dogs which come from the line where ED problems appeared and where the dogs are not checked and I know many serious breeders have done the same... The risk is to high because it is visible that many offspring of dogs with ED also have ED problems (the heredity of ED seems to be MUCH higher than of the HD).

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Margo

...............
PS. We made something more important - we collect information who made the x-rays. So in the new database you will have information not only about the results but also the name of the vet who checked it.

Maybe it also a suggestion to add in which countries dogs did have their x rays!
And also when they have different results in different countries.
Then it becomes also more clear all the differences between the way judging in several countries!

Because since 1991 the FCI decided that dogs can only have HD x ray in the country where they live and are registered.
And the HD results that they did receive in other countries will not be recognized by most of the kennel clubs.
So only the results of the country where the dog is registered will appear on the pedigree of the dog.

It is a strange rule. Because the more strange is that the same dog can have different results of x rays in 2 different countries!

So I can imagine that some owners make HD x rays in other countries then their own.
And then, the best results are always published here on wolfdog.
And that is why some dogs here have other results then the results that are on the pedigree of their puppies.

It would be nice if all kind of breed clubs also would publish the HD results of dogs that did have x rays in different countries.

Then everybody could see that there are differences in judging between specialists and countries and that it is an unfair and strange FCI rule.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by mijke

Because since 1991 the FCI decided that dogs can only have HD x ray in the country where they live and are registered.

I never heard about it, because HD test is a clear veterinary thing and have nothing to do with FCI. Can you send a link on the FCI document ? Thank you

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Pavel

I never heard about it, because HD test is a clear veterinary thing and have nothing to do with FCI.

In the past I thought the same!

But the Dutch kennel organization did confirm me, that it was a decision of the scientific commission of the FCI that did made this decision in 1991.

And this info is also on the site of the RVBH (the Dutch kennel organization) http://www.raadvanbeheer.nl/fokkerij...sie-onderzoek/

To be sure it is not only a crazy Dutch rule , I did ask them to send me the official circular of the FCI of 1991 with this info.
As soon as I have received this, I’ll post it here or add a link.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by mijke

Because since 1991 the FCI decided that dogs can only have HD x ray in the country where they live and are registered.
And the HD results that they did receive in other countries will not be recognized by most of the kennel clubs.
So only the results of the country where the dog is registered will appear on the pedigree of the dog.

Yes, Finish Kennel Club did say that this was the FCI roules, when I did talk to them last year...

I do not know about Sweden, but the Finish Kennel Club did think it was OK to do the x-ray in Finland and then send the X-ray to get the result from a expert on the breed in a nother country. But I do not know if they would put that result on the pedigree or not ???

Best regards / M

[Mikael]

I fund this little test/study and would like to know what you think of it...
Some info is translated from Swedish.

"Hip dysplasia

Hip dysplasia is a common, inherited malformation of the coxofemoral joint that eventually leads to osteoarthrosis. Several breeds of dogs are affected and the prevalence varies between different breeds. As part of the effort to reduce the prevalence of hip dysplasia and select dogs suitable for breeding, radiological screening is performed by at least 12 months of age. Before the radiological examination the dog has to be chemically restrained, sedated or anesthetized. The sedation protocol used differs between veterinary clinics. The impact of sedation method of the screening result for hip dysplasia has been studied. Six young Golden retrievers were radiographed at three times. Without sedation, sedated with acepromazine and sedated with a combination of medetomidine and butorphanol. Acepromazine and medetomidine differs in modes of action, where acepromazine is a neurolepticum with limited effect on muscle relaxation and none on analgesia. The combination of medetomidine and butorphanol results in deep sedation, with a high level of muscle relaxation and analgesia. The type of chemical restraint showed significant effect on the result of the radiological examination. The prevalence of hip dysplasia was lower in unsedated dogs or when sedated with acepromazine than when the dogs were sedated with the combination of medetomidine and butorphanol. In several dogs the result also differed on repeated examination within the same sedation. The number of repeat films was lower and the total time needed for examination shorter when the dogs were sedated, especially when sedated with medetomidine and butorphanol.

Dogs sedated whit Acepromazine performance differs not from awake dogs.

Dog 1-3 has HD x-ray A-B from before and dog 4-6 has the result C on at least one hip.

Dog------- Awake --- Acepromazine-------Medetomidine / Butorphanol

Nr 1 Sin -- A A A ------- A A A -------------------B A A
Dx ---------A A A --------A A A ------------------- B A A
Nr 2 Sin --B C B--------- B C A ------------------- A A A
Dx ---------A A C --------B B C---------------------C A B
Nr 3 Sin ---A A A --------B A A --------------------A A A
Dx ---------B C A --------C C C ---------------------C B C
Nr 4 Sin ---C C C --------B B B --------------------C C C
Dx ---------C C C ---------B C C --------------------C B C
Nr 5 Sin ---B A A --------A A A --------------------C B C
Dx ---------A A A ---------A A A -------------------A A B
Nr 6 Sin ---B B B --------C C C ---------------------C D D
Dx ---------C C C ---------C B B ---------------------C C D



On four occasions, had the same X-ray hip joint assessment of both A and C for the sedation, this occurred in all three of sedation practices. At 14 times varied the same lap one stage, seven of them ranged between B and C, two ranged between C and D and five between A and B. At 18 occasions was the same hip joint results in all three exposures during the same sedation routine."

Source and more info in Swedish.
http://ex-epsilon.slu.se/archive/00002147/01/Sederingsrutinens_p%C3%A5verkan_p%C3%A5_resultatet _av_h%C3%B6ftledsr%C3%B6ntgen.pdf

Very best regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

In Germany the dog has to be sedated until full muscle relaxation and the vet has to confirm that.
The other question is who did the examination, was it always the same person, did it differ what was his qualification etc.

Ina