Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed or not? - Page 2

wolfin · 30-10-2008, 15:27

hmm me like this method. and this groupe A, B, C help to people see who is who.

what think others?

massimo · 30-10-2008, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

If the litters just will not be advertised, maybe at least 1 "breeder" from 10 will decide to make HD ("if that ugly witch Margo wants that badly"

)

Hey Vaiva, i don't really agree with this.
Not having ad on wolfdog doesn't mean the people will not sell the litters...

On the contrary: when there is a "suspect" litter wiith bad HD result or other problems, we speak a lot about it on forums and things like this, and breeders and owners are alerted by such conditions. Instead, no evidence on WD means the "csw community" doesn't know anything about it... things happen in the mist...strange crossings are being done but nobody knows about them!

p.s. Margo is not ugly... but she is a witch, i'm sure!!

massimo

massimo · 30-10-2008, 15:33

sorry, almost forgot:
of course rules for entering Groups A, B, C should be clear so breeders who post new litters know that if they don't send Margo official HD test and bonitation for both parents, then they can forget being in group A.
Dream? all litters published in Group A and B and C totally empty!

There are many dogs which I know for sure that they have HD results but in the litters they are not published, so they go to group C straight away.
Owners will take take of that and be more carefull, i'm sure!

massimo

Juniorwolf · 30-10-2008, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

my 2 cents:
All litters should be allowed an ad on this site, without HD results, with Bad HD results, without bonitation, even those coming from kennels which Margo decided not to advertise any more (

)
To do a good service to buyers, these litters should be showed SEPARATELY!!
Group 1) hd results and bonitation
Group 2) hd results and no bonitation (for some countries bonitation is not compulsory so it is not always "fault")
Group 3) no complete Hd results (even if only one parent has...) and no bonitation.

I believe people would start worrying and want their litter to be in group 1...

Maybe group 1 should have most evidence and the others will appear down on the site and only if you scroll down...

So, NO censoring new litters but distinguishing between breeders who work hard and get results and breeders who don't care.

Massimo

I think this is a very good solution

It is not possible to stop breeders who don`t care about HD anyway, but I am sure that all serious breeders want to be in group 1 and in this way it is still possible to see a complete list of litters...

Greetings Rolf

Hanka · 30-10-2008, 15:47

I agree with groups too. Something (for begin) is better than nothing.

And Group A will have Font number 18 and group C will have Font number 4

massimo · 30-10-2008, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Group A will have Font number 18 and group C will have Font number 4

it may seem funny but it's not a bad idea!
ok 18 - 4 is too much but... MORE EVIDENCE to Group A!!
Breeders who work a lot on their litters, train, bonitate etc should be somehow PRIZED for it.

For example if your dog may be the most beautiful wolfdog around, I admit it, but if he doesn't have adult bonitation and you breed with him, it's your choice, so you DON'T go to group A!!

massimo

Mikael · 30-10-2008, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

my 2 cents:
All litters should be allowed an ad on this site, without HD results, with Bad HD results, without bonitation, even those coming from kennels which Margo decided not to advertise any more (

)
To do a good service to buyers, these litters should be showed SEPARATELY!!
Group 1) hd results and bonitation
Group 2) hd results and no bonitation (for some countries bonitation is not compulsory so it is not always "fault")
Group 3) no complete Hd results (even if only one parent has...) and no bonitation.

I believe people would start worrying and want their litter to be in group 1...

Maybe group 1 should have most evidence and the others will appear down on the site and only if you scroll down...

So, NO censoring new litters but distinguishing between breeders who work hard and get results and breeders who don't care.

Massimo

Sounds like a good solution Massimo

Maby not the best, but certainly better then nothing

This way the database will stay compleat to

And in the future maby the step will not be as big as now
to throw some breeders out the back

Best regards / Mikael

Mikael · 30-10-2008, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

I agree with groups too. Something (for begin) is better than nothing.

And Group A will have Font number 18 and group C will have Font number 4

Or maby green, yellow and red

Regards / Mikael

saschia · 30-10-2008, 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Or maby green, yellow and red

Regards / Mikael

Hmm, the green is not as good as yellow... But maybe light green and dark yellow... My vote on this !

GalomyOak · 30-10-2008, 21:28

Hear! Hear! - to separate categories!

Gaga · 30-10-2008, 21:59

very good idea Massimo! really! So many people don't know what is the "bonitation" and in this case they can start to look for the definition, ask why etc

pariduzz · 31-10-2008, 00:10

The idea of Massimo is rational and intelligent.

But attention we risk to create a damage to all breeder's that live distant or isolated more kilometers from the serius bonitation's .

I live in the south Italy and I don't believe in the Italian club, I hope will do it more' soon in other country's, but for now for personal problems I have not succeeded there still.

I think that they are also found in analogous situations friends that live in remote country or where the clubs of breed are not well developed.

I' asked my this question: ... are my dogs healthy(hd A;hd B), are they wolfish ,apparently without great defects , and a great beautiful character I don't have make them join without bonitation?

This question could seem banal and stupid in a race where there are a lot of genetic variability and where the rules of breeding are attentively respected

And why they will became "B series" dog's?

I have great respect for your opinions and I attentively read often you, you excuse mine bad English, but important semms to me submit this reflection to your attention.

martiou07 · 31-10-2008, 00:30

I think this is a very good solution

Martial

Nebulosa · 31-10-2008, 01:51

Goup B don't mean they're worst, but that they don't have Bonitation, only that.
I don't see problems in it.. won't be separe as "group A, B and C", but by colors only

massimo · 31-10-2008, 03:32

I still believe the separation should be done in groups and NOT only by colours.
For Peppe:
you live far away from "serious bonitations" and I understand this.
But you could, by making some extra efforts, go to slovakia or germany or czech republic.
DOGS are not "B series" as if it was a football championship.
it is not the DOGS which are in discussion but the breeders efforts.
Breeders who travel thousands of kilometers deserve to have special reward for traveling all that distance.
You live far away but I know people who came all the way from Denmark to Serramazzoni only for a dog show or others who drove 3.000km from Finland to Slovakia only for a summer camp.
If you want, it will cost you more efforts, but you can.
Let's fix the conditions in such way, I am sure all will make more efforts to have suitable requirements.

Also, please look at the list I posted. Some breeders I consider EXCELLENT have litters in Group B just because they used a MALE which doesn't have bonitation or used a dog which has just youth bonitation and not adult bonitation.
They remain, for me, excellent breeders but chose their way in a respectful manner.
Massimo
Massimo

btd · 31-10-2008, 09:36

I have voted yes, but agree with Massimo's idea: 3 groups. That will give all information and nothing will be hidden.

Mikael · 31-10-2008, 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Goup B don't mean they're worst, but that they don't have Bonitation, only that.
I don't see problems in it.. won't be separe as "group A, B and C", but by colors only

I se your point...

But I still think group´s are the best solution.

I think A and B breeders are good and responsible breeders,
C breeders however are not eaven trying to be serious and
destroy´s the breed and therefore does not eaven deserve to be on C.

Maby A breeders, B breeders and E breeders is better

and in color

Best regards / Mikael

Nebelwölfe · 31-10-2008, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Some breeders I consider EXCELLENT have litters in Group B just because they used a MALE which doesn't have bonitation or used a dog which has just youth bonitation and not adult bonitation.

I think x-raying hipps is really necessary and important for health of the breed - even if it is not required for breeding permission (what I personally can not understand). I think, here it is in the responsability of every good breeder for the health of the breed!

I think it is a good idea to show somehow, which breeders are responsible and do care for the health of the breed and which ones do not.

In Germany bonitation is not necessary for getting breeding permission. Yet, many good breeders do take care for their dogs having bonitation - and the German Club does offer bonitation in Germany once a year. Therefore I also think bonitation is good for the breed - although bonitations have to be looked at very carefully...

BUT with "B-list" I see the following problem for stud dogs for the countries, in which bonitation is not necessary for breeding permission: Sometimes people have good and interesting males as "family dogs" - but sometimes those people are not really interested in breeding. So sometimes the breeder can persuade them to get breeding permission for the male, and they will do it. But the big problem is, that you probably won't get the owner of the male to drive hundreds of kilometers to do a bonitation for this dog - if it is not required. So now - if you as breeder use this stud dog for your bitch and it is a good and responsible mating - you will be in "B-list", even if all your dogs do have bonitation - and "just" because the male does not have bonitation... So it might be a reason, not to take this stud dog - although it would be a good mating???

One of my questions is about HD results in database...
If a dog is 5 years old, has had litters and there is no HD results in the database - I think it is clear: there are no x-rayed hipps and no HD results (or bad results and not published...) . So checking the database I can see myself, that the mated dogs are not x-rayed (and maybe not bonitated). But how about the young breeding dogs?? If there is no HD results in the database - is it, because they are x-rayed, and the results are with Margo already - but not entered in the database yet? Or is it, because the dog is not x-rayed (or with bad HD results) and the results are not with margo (yet)????

Petra

massimo · 31-10-2008, 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by pariduzz

I' asked my this question: ... are my dogs healthy(hd A;hd B), are they wolfish ,apparently without great defects , and a great beautiful character I don't have make them join without bonitation?

I will repeat that A and B Litter Groups have HD results so they should from my point of view with parents "health" certification.
It doesn't mean the puppies will be without displasia, just that the parents health is certified.

A litters should be distinguished from B litters because also morphologica characteristics have been certified, not only health of Parents.

Example is Peppe's sentance above: my dogs are healthy, they are wolfish, apparently without great defects, beautiful character, why shouldn't they mate?
They should, if you want, you are the breeder and it's your choice.
BUT... there is no certification of their character and morphological qualities from an experienced judge. YOU know that they are without defects, and if I buy a dog from you, I must trust YOU.
Allow me to say, no offense, that if Margo or Hanka or other experienced breeders use a dog without adult bonitation (B group), I would take a puppy from them because I trust them or I know they have experience.
Before I took a puppy from somebody else, I would have to see the parents personally first and be 100% sure of my choice.

I will make a stupid example: i met a breeder who was confident about his dogs, beautiful dogs, went to a couple of shows (not experienced breed judges but normal allrounder judges) who mated his dogs.
Puppies grew up and somebody underlined to him that 70% of the litter had teeth problems (missing teeth).
He then discovered (when puppies were 1 year old...) that both parents had same teeth problems and transmitted this to puppies... but HE never noticed it!!
I could have made the same mistake myself, I must admit... but my dogs have been bonitated and I've been to shows with experienced judges who check everything, even teeth!
Massimo

martiou07 · 31-10-2008, 13:55

bonjour, le fait d'avoir la bonitation ainsi que les radios me semble et nous semble à beaucoup d'entre nous une chose importante. C'est aussi pourquoi j'ai voulut pour la première portée de ma chienne les avoir.
il est bien dommage que beaucoup n'y pretent pas attention et font de la reproduction sans ....
pour ce qui est de la bonitation c'est vrai que certain chien l'ont pas, cependant il suffit de regarder quel éleveur les ont pas, et après à chacun de se faire sa propre opinion suivant l'éleveur en question.
sur certain mariage effectué chez certains éleveurs , je sais que si je recherchais un chien, j'irais sans crainte sans la bonitation

hello, the fact d' to have the bonitation as well as the radios seems to me and seems to us with much d' between us an important thing. C' is also why j' have wanted for the first range of my bitch to have them. it is well damage that much n' do not pay attention and make reproduction to it without…. as regards the bonitation c' is true that certain dog l' do not have, afterwards however it is enough to look at which stockbreeder do not have them, and with each one to form its own opinion according to l' stockbreeder in question. about certain marriage carried out in certain stockbreeders, I know that if I sought a dog, j' would go without fear without the bonitation

sorry for the tanslation

, my english ...............

Martial

View Poll Results: Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed?
Yes	20	54.05%
No	17	45.95%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

30-10-2008, 15:27	#21
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	hmm me like this method. and this groupe A, B, C help to people see who is who. what think others? __________________

30-10-2008, 15:33	#23
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	sorry, almost forgot: of course rules for entering Groups A, B, C should be clear so breeders who post new litters know that if they don't send Margo official HD test and bonitation for both parents, then they can forget being in group A. Dream? all litters published in Group A and B and C totally empty! There are many dogs which I know for sure that they have HD results but in the litters they are not published, so they go to group C straight away. Owners will take take of that and be more carefull, i'm sure! massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

30-10-2008, 21:59	#31
Gaga VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Dientitos Posts: 6,856	very good idea Massimo! really! So many people don't know what is the "bonitation" and in this case they can start to look for the definition, ask why etc __________________ Hodowca psów to nie funkcja, to nie zawód i nie nazwa hobby - to tytuł i godność. Trzeba na nią zasłużyć i dobrze piastować. チェイタン。

31-10-2008, 00:10	#32
pariduzz Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Monte di Procida (Na) Posts: 1,682	The idea of Massimo is rational and intelligent. But attention we risk to create a damage to all breeder's that live distant or isolated more kilometers from the serius bonitation's . I live in the south Italy and I don't believe in the Italian club, I hope will do it more' soon in other country's, but for now for personal problems I have not succeeded there still. I think that they are also found in analogous situations friends that live in remote country or where the clubs of breed are not well developed. I' asked my this question: ... are my dogs healthy(hd A;hd B), are they wolfish ,apparently without great defects , and a great beautiful character I don't have make them join without bonitation? This question could seem banal and stupid in a race where there are a lot of genetic variability and where the rules of breeding are attentively respected And why they will became "B series" dog's? I have great respect for your opinions and I attentively read often you, you excuse mine bad English, but important semms to me submit this reflection to your attention. __________________ www.lupifelix.it

30-10-2008, 15:47	#25
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	I agree with groups too. Something (for begin) is better than nothing. And Group A will have Font number 18 and group C will have Font number 4

30-10-2008, 21:28	#30
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	Hear! Hear! - to separate categories!

31-10-2008, 00:30	#33
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	I think this is a very good solution Martial __________________

31-10-2008, 01:51	#34
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Goup B don't mean they're worst, but that they don't have Bonitation, only that. I don't see problems in it.. won't be separe as "group A, B and C", but by colors only __________________

31-10-2008, 03:32	#35
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	I still believe the separation should be done in groups and NOT only by colours. For Peppe: you live far away from "serious bonitations" and I understand this. But you could, by making some extra efforts, go to slovakia or germany or czech republic. DOGS are not "B series" as if it was a football championship. it is not the DOGS which are in discussion but the breeders efforts. Breeders who travel thousands of kilometers deserve to have special reward for traveling all that distance. You live far away but I know people who came all the way from Denmark to Serramazzoni only for a dog show or others who drove 3.000km from Finland to Slovakia only for a summer camp. If you want, it will cost you more efforts, but you can. Let's fix the conditions in such way, I am sure all will make more efforts to have suitable requirements. Also, please look at the list I posted. Some breeders I consider EXCELLENT have litters in Group B just because they used a MALE which doesn't have bonitation or used a dog which has just youth bonitation and not adult bonitation. They remain, for me, excellent breeders but chose their way in a respectful manner. Massimo Massimo __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

31-10-2008, 09:36	#36
btd złośliwy krasnolud Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 705	I have voted yes, but agree with Massimo's idea: 3 groups. That will give all information and nothing will be hidden. __________________ CIRI Wilk z Polskiego Dworu [']

31-10-2008, 13:55	#40
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	bonjour, le fait d'avoir la bonitation ainsi que les radios me semble et nous semble à beaucoup d'entre nous une chose importante. C'est aussi pourquoi j'ai voulut pour la première portée de ma chienne les avoir. il est bien dommage que beaucoup n'y pretent pas attention et font de la reproduction sans .... pour ce qui est de la bonitation c'est vrai que certain chien l'ont pas, cependant il suffit de regarder quel éleveur les ont pas, et après à chacun de se faire sa propre opinion suivant l'éleveur en question. sur certain mariage effectué chez certains éleveurs , je sais que si je recherchais un chien, j'irais sans crainte sans la bonitation hello, the fact d' to have the bonitation as well as the radios seems to me and seems to us with much d' between us an important thing. C' is also why j' have wanted for the first range of my bitch to have them. it is well damage that much n' do not pay attention and make reproduction to it without…. as regards the bonitation c' is true that certain dog l' do not have, afterwards however it is enough to look at which stockbreeder do not have them, and with each one to form its own opinion according to l' stockbreeder in question. about certain marriage carried out in certain stockbreeders, I know that if I sought a dog, j' would go without fear without the bonitation sorry for the tanslation , my english ............... Martial __________________ Last edited by martiou07; 01-11-2008 at 02:27.