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-   -   where you keep a wolfdog during winter: outdoor or in house. (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24646)

Tana 11-12-2012 18:41

where you keep a wolfdog during winter: outdoor or in house.
 
I have a 4 months old puppy(a girl )of czechoslovakian wolfdog named Tana. From the beginning (2 months)i kept her outdoor, with other 2 small dogs. She has her cage with a lot of grass inside to keep her warm and a huge garden to play(600 mp). Also i feed her only with raw meat, bones and i give her vitamins(PetPhos Crossance Ca/P=2). I think she is quite well developed until now and i think, during winter, even if it will be very cold, she will do just fine outdoor. I kept during many years the 2 small dogs also outdoor and never got them ill because of that. Anyway when is really very cold i let them sleep in our basement but only during the night. What you usually do during winter when you have a puppy of wolfdog? I imagine, because of wolf heritage, the wolfdog is made for snow and living outdoor. :)

GalomyOak 12-12-2012 00:07

All of my dogs sleep warmly indoors if it is cold or rainy...or warm and clear. They seem to enjoy coming in every night, as much as I enjoy having their company as family members - it is not about the weather but the bonding and companionship we share in our home.

Rona 12-12-2012 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 446902)
I imagine, because of wolf heritage, the wolfdog is made for snow and living outdoor. :)

Because of the wolf heritage, wolfdogs are made to stay with their pack. 8)

Tana 12-12-2012 10:03

Each pack has an hierarchy.The pack is first -the other 2 dogs and second is our family. I do not humanize the dogs, cutting them from nature and looking at them like at my own children. I respect the nature and wilderness in them.Living outdoor keep their natural imunity intact and their senses alert; outdoor they can be what nature intendeed for them to be and can guard our house. They have fur to protect them from harsh winter, claws and theeths to hunt, they are not made to sleep in house and to become lazy. Yes, i agree with sharing their bond between them first and second with us. But the humans are the masters on the evolution scale. The home here is the whole our garden, but the house is strictly our human "den", as they have their own cage. Our house is a place where the dogs come from time to time to play, socialise and interact with us like a favor, but never to sleep or lie down on our sofa. They are never allowed in bed and never allowed to our table. They eat after us and in their place. Because of that they know, when we allow them in house to act nice. :))Like us, each one of them likes to be let alone in his cage, which is their property when are outdoor.

avgrunn 12-12-2012 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 446902)
What you usually do during winter when you have a puppy of wolfdog? I imagine, because of wolf heritage, the wolfdog is made for snow and living outdoor. :)

Mine, when he was a puppy, slept with me in my room in my bed, I never forced him, it was his idea to be close to me and I just didn't mind so it stayed like that, and after almost two years it hasn't change. So it seems that my wolfdog is not really made for living outdoor, sure, he stays outside with other dogs, he plays with them, he guards our house, he likes all that, but he prefers to be close to us, humans.

GalomyOak 12-12-2012 13:02

I can appreciate not "humanizing"...while I am away (at work for instance), my dogs also have their garden, and are allowed to be dogs. I have 6 CSVs, so there is plenty of opportunity for dog socialization. Lol, I'd hardly say mine are lazy...most days after being in the garden we train for some kind of work - tracking, trailing, obedience - as the breed was intended to do as a working dog breed.

Resources such as food are controlled and must be worked for. In this way, the dogs know who is in charge...largely the other parts of "alpha dog" theory have been disproven.

When we are done for the day, mine also don't sleep on the furniture, but do appreciate the comfort of a soft place on the floor to sleep and relax, and know that as their leader, I have provided safety for them...they know what the expectations are for them as dogs in the home, and this transfers to other indoor places when they travel with me, which is often. Lol, I guess if humans lived strictly by nature we would be eating insects and swinging from trees.

tupacs2legs 12-12-2012 13:54

They Are a breed of dog,not pet wolves!

Given the choice mine would rather sleep inside ...even my huskies choose to,just because they can cope with cold weather doesn't mean they want to lol!

Rona 12-12-2012 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 446937)
Each pack has an hierarchy.The pack is first -the other 2 dogs and second is our family. I do not humanize the dogs, cutting them from nature and looking at them like at my own children. I respect the nature and wilderness in them.Living outdoor keep their natural imunity intact and their senses alert; outdoor they can be what nature intendeed for them to be and can guard our house. They have fur to protect them from harsh winter, claws and theeths to hunt, they are not made to sleep in house and to become lazy. Yes, i agree with sharing their bond between them first and second with us. But the humans are the masters on the evolution scale. The home here is the whole our garden, but the house is strictly our human "den", as they have their own cage. Our house is a place where the dogs come from time to time to play, socialise and interact with us like a favor, but never to sleep or lie down on our sofa. They are never allowed in bed and never allowed to our table. They eat after us and in their place. Because of that they know, when we allow them in house to act nice. :))Like us, each one of them likes to be let alone in his cage, which is their property when are outdoor.

Why do you ask if you know the only "corrrect" answer? :p

vila 12-12-2012 18:11

My Veela sleeps with me by my legs in a large bed, like she did since the first day I got her. She knows as well as I do, that any given moment I can assert myself as the alpha, especially indoors. She doesn't have the option of going outside on large gardens, but she gets more than enough daily exercise. I too strongly believe that staying close to pack members is very important and logical to CSVs, regardless of "hierarchy". I also think that the cold is not necessarily the factor for them... I mean i'm certain taht if I chose to sleep in a freezing garage and Veela would have the option to go sleeping in a warm bedroom, she would sleep next to me :)

Rona 12-12-2012 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by vila (Bericht 446985)
. I mean i'm certain taht if I chose to sleep in a freezing garage and Veela would have the option to go sleeping in a warm bedroom, she would sleep next to me :)

You touched the very essence of healthy human-vlcak relationship :love

Fede86 12-12-2012 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 446937)
I respect the nature and wilderness in them.

Well, dogs in general are not "natural" nor "wild", but man-made animals ("domestic" should be the key word).

Apart from that, you can respect the "nature" of your dogs by taking them out for long walks every day so that they can run free, explore, have fun. A garden for them is a little more than an oversized cage, a prison that prevents them from being with you AND also from satisfying their needs by having fun OUTSIDE. Believe me, a garden is boring for a dog. Especially for dogs like the Czechoslovakian wolfdog.

yukidomari 12-12-2012 20:33

my dogs get on the couch, sometimes on the bed, sometimes they eat before, and sometimes after. we share everything and they are well behaved.. when we are outdoors they are outdoors, when we are inside they have that choice too. sometimes my male comes to check on me in the middle of the night (i hear it, but he doesn't touch me or disturb me), it makes me smile. :)

but it seems the original poster wasn't really asking a question anyway?

buidelwolf 12-12-2012 20:47

Quote:

my dogs get on the couch, sometimes on the bed, sometimes they eat before, and sometimes after. we share everything and they are well behaved.. when we are outdoors they are outdoors, when we are inside they have that choice too.
With my dog exactly the same.

A puppy of 4 months in the cold Rumanian winter? Ok, it will well be possible, but I wonder what kind of relationship you build with your dog.

jefta 13-12-2012 22:48

She sleeps with the rest of the dogs? It must be cold alone for so small puppy :|

jmvdwiel 14-12-2012 00:25

My CSW sleeps at the end of the bed, he curls himself into a small round and sleeps beside my feet, in the morning he is always gone , most of the time he is sleeping on the couch at that time :) Alongside with the cats.

My dogs can sleep in the bed but only if they behave and don't steal the blanckets or put their feet in my face. So that we all have a good night rest ;)

I don't think it is nice for a pup to stay outside all by itself :(

Angelika 14-12-2012 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by jefta (Bericht 447065)
She sleeps with the rest of the dogs? It must be cold alone for so small puppy :|

I absolutely agree - very, very cold for a small CsW puppy :cry:

deocamdata 21-12-2012 12:51

My CSW has allays been outside.
Last winter was few days with -21 and there was not any kind of problems.
Now together with Karlos (my CSW) also outside I have a Malinois 7 months old.
They sleep separately but during the day they are together and playing all the day ...
So ... my opinion is the the dog is exactly like you grow it ... That doesn't mean that a very small puppy can be left outside in a very cold weather.

Rona 22-12-2012 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by deocamdata (Bericht 447437)
My CSW has allays been outside.

So you don't know how much fun you're losing ;-) They are such great room mates! :lol:

AMERICANI 22-12-2012 07:53

where do they sleep?
 
Considering the fact I have 9, I rotate them out. Our winters really have nothing on places like Poland ;) So, the cold really isn't an issue. As far as the consideration of the nature within ourselves. as well as our dogs, the select ones for the time come in, but follow rules. The bond grows so much stronger when you maximize interaction with them. 9 is too many, and 3 are actually select for placing with other families. I don't have kids, don't closely interact with anyone with kids, or (for the moment) intend on having any. I relate my "pack" structure to the military, which is the lifestyle I am most accustomed to. My dogs don't sleep on the bed, they don't beg for food at the table, and they sit until released before welcoming guests or going out. I feel horrible that I can't spend 100% of my time with each one 100% of the time. CsVs are not wolves, but they do have more of the innate requirement to have a role within the pack than most dogs.

Rona 22-12-2012 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMERICANI (Bericht 447460)
Considering the fact I have 9, I rotate them out. Our winters really have nothing on places like Poland ;) .

I thought we were talking about vlcaks in Romania? :rock_3

As far as I know, the vast majority of Polish owners keep their vlcaks indoors, and it has nothing to do with climate. We simply enjoy the company of our dogs. They are part of the family/pack :) Of course it doesn't mean the dog should not obey the commands and leave the couch or room every time when told to do so.

BTW I've always found it hard to understand how it was possible that a vlcak escaped from its home/pack. I can imagine this now, after having read how some pups are brought up.:|

Tana 21-01-2013 20:35

Greetings, wow so many answers:roll:... In all af them i saw one thing:what a lot of people believe about their dogs, I saw a lot of human desires and hopes about their dogs. Nobody answered to the simply question, why the wolfdog was created in fact by the army and how much is their dog close to the natural way to live of their ancestors ? Is nothing about their hair inside the house and nothing about their POOP. :lol:Rona you know so much about our country or dogs,but in fact you do not know nothing. You presume everything and that is wrong. You will tell me Rona, that a wolfdog is like a cat when he want to poop?:rock_3Wolfdog is a dog full of energy, but nobody tells nothing about the fact that they are some cute little "tasmanian devils" when they are small. They find a great pleasure in chewing everything they can reach. You can't relax too much when you know you can't let this dog home alone and to expect to find everything right when you come home. :)I am sorry but the truth is that this dog is made to be outside where he can explore and behave like a dog not like a cat and where are not so many restrictions like inside. I agree, the best is to go with your dog in wilderness, is where she/he is really happy. This is a second proof that wolfdog is happy outside the room , the house, even the garden can be too small for him. So i will keep the dog outside my house all the time. I was just curious to see how many did the same. Romania is not Syberia, the weather is like in all other central european countries so she will be fine outside. Now she has 5 months and she is outside for almost 2 months and half. My oppinion is that she will be more healthy and tough in long terms than a dog living inside. e will judge. I have 3 dogs with Tana and all of them live outside in the winter and play. No human can play with a dog like dogs play with each other so i think all are just fine. A nice day to you all :)

vila 21-01-2013 20:54

You should show some respect to a person with as much experience with Vlcaks as Rona. Unfortunately accidents with poop happen, but if you are unable to teach your dog house rules, maybe the answer isn't to lock the dogs outside the house but maybe you shouldn't own dogs? You do know that you must take the dogs for walks right? So they don't poop and pee indoor. Sounds like the big yard is just an excuse? ... And don't you even for one moment start to argue the history of the breed, because you obviously don't know much. Sure Vlcaks were created for a military purpose, it was an experiment but unfortunately that experiment failed, they didn't create the dog they wanted. It wasn't a disaster but they didn't know realistically what to expect. A Vlcak is far more a family dog than it is an unaffectionate robotic winter machine. You asked for advice, most people said their Vlcak is part of the family, part of the house and in some cases even part of the bed :) you go ahead and keep them out, probably the dogs will do just fine... I just don't understand how you can have big dogs and be bothered by some poop? ...And your dogs don't understand either.

avgrunn 21-01-2013 21:03

Well, so I guess my vlcak has no idea what he was created for :lol:, coz after some time spent outside he always knocks to our front window to let him in and then he greets us and lays very close to us.
He is a dog who prefers to be with us than alone outside.
Proof:
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/...ps98c0f453.jpg
That is how he prefers to sleep, close to his human not outside
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0dfeb513.jpg

Tana 21-01-2013 21:35

You too are presuming too much vila, i have dogs in my yard for more than 14 years, a informed myself about this wolfdog, more than you can ever imagine. I love them and they love me but they are not my puppets. My house is for my family not to be servant of a dog and clean his poop and hair. I doubt yours smell so good if you keep the dog inside and i doubt is quite healthy to live with hair, poop and a dog who must watch all the time like a guardian to keep your cables safe. I do not have respect for falsity, because the reality is in a diversity of colours not only rose. If you keep a dog that you think is a failed experiment, you should not keep dogs like that not i. Maybe your dog is a "failed experiment", but stay away from mine which is raised like it must be. You should read the description of the wolfdog in wikipedia and ask yourself if you still own a wolf dog or a cat. Very funny, so only because my dog lives outdoor is a "unaffectionate robotic winter machine", haha, ask army -you discovered a new dog for star wars :))) Have fun vila nothing more to say to you;)

avgrunn 21-01-2013 21:49

Tana do you think that all of us who have dogs at home have also poo, bad smell and hair at home? And that our dogs destroy everything so we can't leave them alone ven for a second?

Tana 21-01-2013 21:50

I am sorry but i like more those who save others life instead of sleeping like a lazy cat, any dog can do this of course, no need to be wolfdog can be a cute bichon, still the cat is the best, no matter what: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQPFtilcgFY

vila 21-01-2013 22:05

Ahahhahahah, you informed yourself about Vlcaks through Wikipedia?! Aahahhaha, you just proved my point. Of course puppies will make mistakes. We don't have a big back yard, so our Vila has to be walked and exercised and learn new things every day for several hours, so she learned and now she is calm indoors and isn't a problem. Adult dogs don't poop in houses if they only have little respect for you and are being walked regularly. A lot people live with dogs in houses, you think all of them have poop laying around and dogs do their business all over the place? You are very disillusioned it is almost sad. Of course you can keep you dogs outside, just the reason is silly! What an expert. You maybe had dogs for 14 years locked outside, but sadly that only makes you an owner. Having lived with Vila i'm her teacher and companion. How can you ignore all posts here, not only mine, but also this nice picture from avgrunn. Everybody here is trying to tell you, you are missing out, also you dogs are. Please don't be angry, just try to understand this point of view. I didn't like poop and chewing also, but I was persistant with training. I know your puppy is also hard to handle now, maybe when she's a little older and calmer at least give her a chance for few hours every other day and teach her house rules, maybe you'll be surprised.

About the video, we all saw it, we all know Vlcaks are a working breed, but still it doesn't prove they don't like to rest with their human pack. I'm doing canicross, gonna try skijoring now because Vila loves running with other dogs. She thinks she's in a pack :) what are you planning to do with your puppy?

Think happy thoughts,
Ivan

avgrunn 21-01-2013 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448688)
I am sorry but i like more those who save others life instead of sleeping like a lazy cat, any dog can do this of course, no need to be wolfdog can be a cute bichon, still the cat is the best, no matter what

Are your dogs saving lives? Or do you just like that type?

Tana 21-01-2013 22:13

yes avgrunn, do not be upset with me, but i think if they are still dogs and not lazy wolfcats, they like to run, jump, search ,dig, smell, they like to work and hunt birds, cats, play and bite with other dogs. A man who is in his pack can't bite like dogs when they play with each other, right? :)) Is a kind a falsity to say ,if you sleep with a dog in the bed, that you are in the same pack with him. Maybe a human pack for your taste, but sure not for a wolfdog taste. Look at the documentary with that guy named wolf man .Inside house they can't behave like a dog, without being annoying or distructive so they are not really happy, we are happy. In house they cannot hide for example a bone under grass .Where to hide their precious bone in the house? Under carpet? :))She wolf Tana at 5 months is full of energy and joy, a really small and cute devil. I think a wolfdog enjoy winter like a husky.

avgrunn 21-01-2013 22:24

This is so amusing :lol:

Do you think my Uro is only sleeping all day? Believe me, we spend our time on training- sometimes something serious, somethimes something just for fun. We have passed some exams and this is just the beginning. So think something before you say it, just because my dog sleeps at home doesn't mean that he is doing only that. He spends his time outside as much as he wants, he plays with our other dogs, chases cats, hides his bones and meat, diggs them up, he does all what you dogs do, but when he wants to be with us we let him. You like your dogs only outside? Fine, your decision, but as Vila said your excuses are just weak. I have more than one dog at home, no one is pooping, nothing is destroyed. All the dogs know the rules and they obey them. Simple, I've put a lot of work and effort and it already has paid back.

Vila I completely agree with you :)

By the way what is with talking about the pack who said anything about it. But if you want to go into this, trust me Urobach will choose me over our other dogs.

vila 21-01-2013 22:28

Yes they go in their zoomie episodes in snow! :D

I also wanted to say that it doesn't mean are dogs are lazy cats and I'm ceratin that a lot of the dogs in that video are also allowed in the house and rest with people ;)

I also know the wolf man - Shaun Ellis, I also read some of his books very closely. Maybe you misunderstood or you need to study his way more closely. He actually would disagree keeping the lives separate. You view your house as your den, but in wolf packs the den is only and I mean only for the breeding female who's about to have puppies, and the only other wolf that's allowed in is the "nanny" wolf, who brings food and looks over the puppies when mamma goes to feed and drink. The decision makers in a pack have no problem sleeping close to one another, but they can at any moment assert themselves as pack leaders. So if you're trying to mimic wolf man, you're actually doing it really wrong. Not to critisize, I'm just saying I read the books and stuff.

Maybe dog whisperer - Cesar Millan is closer to what you're thinking but also he doesn't mind dogs sleeping near to people as long as they are respectful and are invited. For people who haven't achieved total calm submission from a dog he strongly advises that the the dogs are not allowed on the bed, but can sleep beside the bed, so the dog learns boundries.

You need to understand that the Vlcak isn't as extreme as a wolf or a hybrid wolfdog. They can rest indoors and only rest! You can make that decision, but you have to be "fair play" - for example after a long walk or a trip when the dog is really tired you can let her in because you know she will probably fall asleep. But if you let her in full of energy you are setting her to fail.

vila 21-01-2013 22:41

Ps. I'm certain you will view your devil puppy different when she calms down, first she'll calm down after teething is done untill good start of puberty, then she'll be difficult again because of all the hormones and just simply the teenager stage. Than after 2 or more years when her character fully developes, you will view her at least a bit more like a dog :)

Tana 21-01-2013 23:02

vila i informed myself from many sources not only wikipedia... that was only a reminder for you. I think for you this race is "failed" because you forget what purpose has at beginning.It was a dog for army, for rescue in the cold mountains. You laugh to hear only yourself... I browsed many pages , I watched a lot of documentary not only about wolfdogs but also living in pack with wolves, the wolf pack mentality, I know all the history related with wolfdog, I watched also documentary with cezar milan and choosed this race. I searched a dog for many years, to be close of White Fang, if you know the story, because my old dog Tasha has 14 years old now. She is not from pure race, is a small dog but she is still a good mother who can learn any puppy "the dog way" if i may say so. Is also a proud and very good guardian of our house for many years. A man cannot teach a dog how to behave like an older dog...you are a loser forever in this competition, i am sorry, you just do not see the reality. She is outside but not locked like yours in the house...she is free to taste, experience mistakes and learn under Tasha eye. If you walk your dog is not enough, is not the same like letting him the freedom of doing dogs things, that are not your human ones, like digging holes or hauling? Do you dig holes for your dog to make him happy or you walk with him to be you happy?See the difference?:))Why to be upset? If a lot of people jump, i must jump too because you say so or others? No thanks. If you are many you think the truth is all yours? Wrong. The reality means diversity of oppinions. If you have a small yard and take care of your dog as best as you can, is fine for him and you. But do not pretend this is the best in the world because is not. I think the nature is the supreme judge here because we all are created in nature. A wolfdog raised outside, close to the nature is better prepared for living in nature, for surviving to the challenges if you want, than one living inside house where is the human teritory. I hope you understand me but i doubt it. Same for others. This is my oppinnion and i am sorry you do not accept other oppinions than yours old ones, but i keep it :))I hope only that you do not kill me or push me because i do not want to jump :P

vila 21-01-2013 23:17

Yeah I see you missed my point, again. Vila is off leash on walks everyday - she has all the freedom everyday, even chases rabbits and deer but chooses to return to me. I can send you a link to my photo album to quiet your mouth, because I know Vila has explored freely off leash thousands of square meters of pure nature more that in your back yard. I really tried to be nice but I won't bother anymore. I'm happy that Vila is balanced and socialized and its nice to see some support from more experienced owners. I guess I must be doing something right ;)

Tana 21-01-2013 23:34

I wrote very slow because i am not a native english speaker. I repeat myself, i am sure even when she will be big she will stay outside,with other 2 dogs. We trust her the protection of our small house, we not need her to be our puppet. We do not like hair in the house is not healthy, smell of dog in the bathroom, dog in the bed, dog at our table not even the childrens. I am sorry, for your mentality, but are in the world childrens who want to have their own bed, not shared with any kind of dog or cat and sleep better when they know their toys are safe. :))They can share with Tana from time to time some of them, eventually. Even with all of that, they love all our 3 dogs. I must go to sleep now, is late in Eastern Europe where Romania is, close to Black Sea btw, so i wish you all good night for now.

Tana 21-01-2013 23:54

Vila your dog is under your nose, Tana is under other dog nose...you really do not see the difference?! Take yourself another dog, older, more experienced and you will learn you can't teach a dog nothing. Is nothing about your human mentality is about wolfdog mentality. I try to be nice too, i am not a bad person , just i think in another way than you, sorry, so please watch this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWmOt...eature=related I am sorry, i really must go to sleep now, here is close to midnight. Those are the ancestors, the wolfdog behavior about pack is the same, i can see that in the behavior of my puppy with other 3 dogs even if it is at the beginning. I am happy that i have my little pack of 3 girls and i think Tana is well teached outside house, better than i can do it inside. I hope you understand me after you will watch this and i will be honored to see your photos. In fact we all love our wolfdogs, even if they are little devils or not :). Good night or a nice day to you.

Rona 22-01-2013 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448677)
You will tell me Rona, that a wolfdog is like a cat when he want to poop?:rock_3Wolfdog is a dog full of energy, but nobody tells nothing about the fact that they are some cute little "tasmanian devils" when they are small. They find a great pleasure in chewing everything they can reach. You can't relax too much when you know you can't let this dog home alone and to expect to find everything right when you come home. :)I am sorry but the truth is that this dog is made to be outside where he can explore and behave like a dog not like a cat and where are not so many restrictions like inside.

How long have you got a vlcak, 5 months? And you seriously claim you know anything about them? That's realy a good joke! :lol:
I clearly see you have a serious problem - you tend to think you know everything best. I don't want to sound negative but such approach is not very practical with this breed. I won't tell you why, you'll find it yourself sooner or later, . :|

I'm asking again: why have you started this topic if you wanted to hear one answer? It's your dog and you may keep her where you want. Experienced owners expressed their opinions, but you don't believe them. Fine with me - I respect your right to make mistakes.

Rona 22-01-2013 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448688)
I am sorry but i like more those who save others life instead of sleeping like a lazy cat, any dog can do this of course, no need to be wolfdog can be a cute bichon, still the cat is the best, no matter what: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQPFtilcgFY

Haha, why don't you ask Mijke where she keeps up her vlcaks? :rock_3 Maybe this will open you eyes. :p

mijke 22-01-2013 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 448727)
Haha, why don't you ask Mijke where she keeps up her vlcaks? :rock_3 Maybe this will open you eyes. :p

A photo impression how I keep my Vlcaks

Waiting during Water Rescue Training
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-CMPCUKHO-G.jpg

Sleeping during Day time
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-Q68NHPMZ-G.jpg

During our party time
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-DOATUEFS-G.jpg

During TV watching
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-IVUWFWZZ-G.jpg

During Daytime
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-F4OCPVL7-G.jpg

During painting our room
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-XEE4LII7-G.jpg

During holliday time
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-XZT67H6K-G.jpg

During having a litter time
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-IQ8VXDVK-G.jpg

During computer time
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-KKPATRFE-G.jpg

During waiting for Avalanche training
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-3PY3KAYH-G.jpg

My dogs love to work ánd to be family members :rock_3

In our house they also can choose for several benches (with open doors) to sleep. Only in the night and when nobody is at home the doors are closed.

avgrunn 22-01-2013 14:32

Great photos :p it shows that working dogs can as well be great family dogs.

michaelundinaeichhorn 22-01-2013 15:47

And why shouldn´t they?
My two Mantrailers tend to enter the bed and sleep in my bedroom at night and still are able to search for people. Staying in the house as a family member has no influence on the nose or working ability. Important is a good working-relationship to their owner.

Ina

michaelundinaeichhorn 22-01-2013 15:53

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 4888
Amsel and Altai after work.

Also interesting as a lot of people say you can´t keep adult females together unless they are related. All three dogs on the picture are adult only two are related...

yukidomari 22-01-2013 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448688)
I am sorry but i like more those who save others life instead of sleeping like a lazy cat, any dog can do this of course, no need to be wolfdog can be a cute bichon, still the cat is the best, no matter what: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQPFtilcgFY

I think that the ability to work is more dependent on training and genetics through breeding, then does on whether a dog is treated like an integrated part of a family or simply lives outside ...:|

Tana 22-01-2013 17:52

I'm asking again: why have you started this topic if you wanted to hear one answer? It's your dog and you may keep her where you want. Experienced owners expressed their opinions, but you don't believe them. Fine with me - I respect your right to make mistakes.[/quote]
****************
I was just curious to see how many think a wolfdog must be raised outside and how many think is better inside. So if i have my oppinion different than your, why you care so much and presume so many stupid things about me or my country?! Do you really think that such dog who slept all his life in the house, if some day is lost in the wilderness, is able to survive and adapt, instead of being a good prey for other animals, including wolves? My respect for this race means to keep the natural abilities of wolfdog intact if i can. So i am sorry but I can't believe a dog raised to sleep like a lazy cat in the owner's bed can still survive and be accepted in a wolf pack, like the one in the documentary, not even that is able to hunt for his own food. Also in my oppinion is prone to diseases more than one who live outside all his life, where the harsh climatic condition can help him to be more healthy and resistant in long terms. Is the evolution way, tested for centuries by nature herself-the stronger, survive; the weaker is food for the stronger. Harsh but true. Also I kept years ago a german shepherd in an apartment( my parents apartment, when i was a student), so i really know how is it. All the dogs smells and let a lot of hair behind, they can destroy cables and doors also they steal food if they can. Washing them often is not healthy for their hair, so you must live with them after they was outside in long walks each day. Ahaha this is a nightmare, the smell is in the blanket, the hair is in the air. The hair can provoke asthma. This is the reality. If you do not realise this, your guests maybe are too polite to say you the truth. Is like in a smoker house. Everything can be clean, even in photos :lol:, but when you visit him you realise somebody smoke there.But in photos is a perfect harmony . Of course I have photos with my little dog and my 180 l aquarium. Tana can be nice in the house for several hours if first we play with her, but i will be never sure what will be with the fate of my aquarium if she will be left "home alone" :twisted:No more to say, each owner has his taste. I doubt when wolfdog was created was for sleeping in bed, watching tv etc. this is simply mocking the dignity of this race. No wonder that some german shepherds owner's, from working line, think also this is a "failed experiment" If some of the owners, who keep him in house think like that about their wolfdog, what to say about strangers :(In that documentary was -among others things(the life in a real wolf pack)-about how to create a bond with an proud wolf without destroying his natural way to be, a kind of high respect that i can understand and i really like. So I will try to keep the nature path if i can, because i think is healthier. Anyway, is really funny, i wonder how some could sleep well during night, with almost 45 kilos(an adult wolfdog) on them, is another kind of falsity i can't believe, because is far away from any kind of good sense. :lol: I think all are just funny photos for the family album. Or maybe you try once and after you go to doctor to check your bones :lol:Sorry again, we all like to sleep well during night, family and dogs, each one in his place : bed ,cage or under sun :rock_3

Rona 22-01-2013 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke (Bericht 448751)
My dogs love to work ánd to be family members :rock_3

Just like ours, Mijke. Only we don't do water rescue only mantrailing, like Ina :)

Quote:

Also interesting as a lot of people say you can´t keep adult females together unless they are related. All three dogs on the picture are adult only two are related...
Who says that? :lol:
I find it hard to believe how many myths people make about vlcaks :lol: There more silly myths they believ in, the less hard work they put in upbringing, training and relationship building. And then - when the dogs grow - they make even more myths about how wild and unpredictable creatures they are... :twisted: ... just sad. :(

Angelika 22-01-2013 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448702)
I searched a dog for many years, to be close of White Fang, if you know the story ...

Aha ... simply a misguided romantic :roll:

If you really need a guard dog "to protect your small house near the Black Sea", why didn´t you take an Airedale from your breeder?

It would have been better because you´ll never understand the character of a CsW.

michaelundinaeichhorn 22-01-2013 21:21

You mix up a lot of different things here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448784)
****************
Do you really think that such dog who slept all his life in the house, if some day is lost in the wilderness, is able to survive and adapt, instead of being a good prey for other animals, including wolves? My respect for this race means to keep the natural abilities of wolfdog intact if i can. So i am sorry but I can't believe a dog raised to sleep like a lazy cat in the owner's bed can still survive and be accepted in a wolf pack, like the one in the documentary, not even that is able to hunt for his own food.

CSW are dogs not hybrids, they were selected for dog behaviour, those with wolfbehaviour were killed in the past and still get sorted out to some amount by the bonitation. Dogs are our only animals that have the genetic imprinted need to bond to humans and that see humans as their main pack - this was a selection done over at least 15 000 years. No matter if you raise them indoors or outdoors there are very few dogs that are able to survive alone in the wild. The only way to survive in a wolf pack as an adult is to be one of the founders. We raised several European wolves, they took our adults as pack leaders till they got mature themselves, we had to take the dogs out then, even the dogs that don´t live in the house and lived within the pack with wolves they raised. They simply don´t have the wolves mentally and bodily strength. We also took two CSW-puppies and put them in the pack together with Wolf Cubs of the same age. With about 4-5 month of age we took them out, through the whole time they stayed dogs and till today they live as dogs.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448784)
my oppinion is prone to diseases more than one who live outside all his life, where the harsh climatic condition can help him to be more healthy and resistant in long terms. Is the evolution way, tested for centuries by nature herself-the stronger, survive; the weaker is food for the stronger. Harsh but true.

First they are not healthier but in the oposite get less old, due to the harsher conditions and as a vet with a long experience I will not discuss here. Less health comes from wrong selection, evolution doesn´t work for pets as the evolutionary process for pets is made by humans not by nature.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448784)
I kept years ago a german shepherd in an apartment( my parents apartment, when i was a student), so i really know how is it. All the dogs smells and let a lot of hair behind, they can destroy cables and doors also they steal food if they can. Washing them often is not healthy for their hair, so you must live with them after they was outside in long walks each day. Ahaha this is a nightmare, the smell is in the blanket, the hair is in the air. The hair can provoke asthma. This is the reality. If you do not realise this, your guests maybe are too polite to say you the truth. Is like in a smoker house. Everything can be clean, even in photos :lol:, but when you visit him you realise somebody smoke there.But in photos is a perfect harmony . Of course I have photos with my little dog and my 180 l aquarium. Tana can be nice in the house for several hours if first we play with her, but i will be never sure what will be with the fate of my aquarium if she will be left "home alone" :twisted:No more to say, each owner has his taste. I doubt when wolfdog was created was for sleeping in bed, watching tv etc. this is simply mocking the dignity of this race. No wonder that some german shepherds owner's, from working line, think also this is a "failed experiment" If some of the owners, who keep him in house think like that about their wolfdog, what to say about strangers :(In that documentary was -among others things(the life in a real wolf pack)-about how to create a bond with an proud wolf without destroying his natural way to be, a kind of high respect that i can understand and i really like. So I will try to keep the nature path if i can, because i think is healthier. Anyway, is really funny, i wonder how some could sleep well during night, with almost 45 kilos(an adult wolfdog) on them, is another kind of falsity i can't believe, because is far away from any kind of good sense. :lol: I think all are just funny photos for the family album. Or maybe you try once and after you go to doctor to check your bones :lol:Sorry again, we all like to sleep well during night, family and dogs, each one in his place : bed ,cage or under sun :rock_3

How you keep your dogs is you personal decision and this is the only way I agree, apart from this our dogs are not allowed in every room of the house so don´t worry about our guests and wolfdogs don´t smell as GSH do if you don´t keep them in dirty kennels. But my dogs are all working dogs in the true sense of the meaning, they search missed persons all day long several days in row if necessary or they play in movies.
Again if you think a wolfpack is the same as a dog pack you need to do a lot more research and I would recommend science studies instead of some documentaries in television.

Ina

Tana 22-01-2013 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika (Bericht 448790)
Aha ... simply a misguided romantic :roll:

If you really need a guard dog "to protect your small house near the Black Sea", why didn´t you take an Airedale from your breeder?

It would have been better because you´ll never understand the character of a CsW.

So Angelika, the smart answer ever i seen :)) Hmm only because i keep a dog outside not inside my house, because i do not like to have hair and his poop everywhere and a hard to accept smell for a healthy family, i will never understand the wolfdog...hahaha. So maybe i must buy an airedale because his poop smell nice or different and his hair is blondie? Hahaha. So smelling or cleaning the dog poop and the hair, each day in a house with childrens, a house where we sleep, eat and relax ourselves after work, i will be wiser and i will have a very good relation with my dog. Hahaha. Eventually i can sleep on my floor and the dog in my bed so like that we will be in the same pack forever. Hahaha. And i do not need a guard dog, sure not, to protect my family like their ancestors did in the past when the first human tamed a wolf offering him the heat of a fire and food, for his protection in an partnership. Oh noo, i need only to be his servant, I will be happy to clean the mess and repair after him, all the time, to feed him only with raw meat and my children with bones. Hahaha .You are all very funny indeed. Never imagined you are so many , so far away from the good sense of living healthy and let wolfdogs be themselves. I will keep all my dogs outdoor even if are puppies, to make them resistant to diseases, in a good cage with a lot of grass inside, like i usually have. The best place for a wolfdog is a paddock or a pen where he can be with other dogs, not in the house. I will have like always a good relation with them, like i have from many years. For me they are companions, not my house puppets or childrens. Our house is not a dump. Have fun in yours.;)) Oh and yess, i am glad to be the last misguided romantic in the world, omg hahaha

yukidomari 22-01-2013 23:02

I'm only sorry that your only experience with dogs was one that seemingly made your house 'a dump'...... :shock:

Angelika 22-01-2013 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tana (Bericht 448809)
i am glad to be the last misguided romantic in the world

Congrats ... and you made my day too.

Angelika 22-01-2013 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari (Bericht 448815)
I'm only sorry that your only experience with dogs was one that seemingly made your house 'a dump'...... :shock:

The dog wasn´t guilty, Jing 8):lol::lol:

yukidomari 22-01-2013 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika (Bericht 448818)
The dog wasn´t guilty, Jing 8):lol::lol:

surely not guilty, since any regular owner with even a little training ability, at least potty trains a dog... :)

Tana 23-01-2013 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 448801)
You mix up a lot of different things here.


CSW are dogs not hybrids, they were selected for dog behaviour, those with wolfbehaviour were killed in the past and still get sorted out to some amount by the bonitation. Dogs are our only animals that have the genetic imprinted need to bond to humans and that see humans as their main pack - this was a selection done over at least 15 000 years. No matter if you raise them indoors or outdoors there are very few dogs that are able to survive alone in the wild. The only way to survive in a wolf pack as an adult is to be one of the founders. We raised several European wolves, they took our adults as pack leaders till they got mature themselves, we had to take the dogs out then, even the dogs that don´t live in the house and lived within the pack with wolves they raised. They simply don´t have the wolves mentally and bodily strength. We also took two CSW-puppies and put them in the pack together with Wolf Cubs of the same age. With about 4-5 month of age we took them out, through the whole time they stayed dogs and till today they live as dogs.

First they are not healthier but in the oposite get less old, due to the harsher conditions and as a vet with a long experience I will not discuss here. Less health comes from wrong selection, evolution doesn´t work for pets as the evolutionary process for pets is made by humans not by nature.

How you keep your dogs is you personal decision and this is the only way I agree, apart from this our dogs are not allowed in every room of the house so don´t worry about our guests and wolfdogs don´t smell as GSH do if you don´t keep them in dirty kennels. But my dogs are all working dogs in the true sense of the meaning, they search missed persons all day long several days in row if necessary or they play in movies.
Again if you think a wolfpack is the same as a dog pack you need to do a lot more research and I would recommend science studies instead of some documentaries in television.

Ina

Ina (michaelundinaeichhorn ) sorry your name is too difficult to write, so i used copy-paste. So Ina with what you said i can agree, i have respect for your work and such work , made me proud to have myself a little wolfdog. :) But i still not agree to keep such a big dog in a small house like we have, where are also childrens. Is not german shepherd but is still hair in the air and dog smell , this is the truth and we do not agree with such things in our house, not even the childrens. I am sorry the reality is not like in some tv movies with dogs and childrens :))You can keep a very good relation with your dogs even if they live outside, of course that a dog pack is not so harsh like an wolf pack, but inside this dog pack are many good rules for a puppy, like the respect for the oldest and the guardian behaviour. Also i am sure , just watching them, that they live more happy playing with each other in the dog way, than living inside where are a lot of restrictions. In your house maybe are few, in mine are many because is smaller and we are many. Is what i said. No man can replace another dog when is about playing or teaching another puppy how to behave in a dog pack. In my little girl's pack is a kind of solidarity wich is not like human friendship with a dog. If you have many dogs and you are vet you understand this.This kind of life in a dog pack is very good for my small wolfdog, nobody can replace the experience and the life lessons from the older dog.Why to say that an owner of wolfdog can't understand his dog just because he live outside? My house is not big, but my yard i think is large enough.I am sorry is not bigger but is inside a town, not in the country side.The bond can be, no matter where your wolfdog live. Is such a falsity to pretend you are in the same pack only because you sleep with your wolfdog in the bed. Hahaha. Of course they are family outside too. A real wolf or dog pack anyway is far away from human rules is what i said and what you wrote confirm this is the truth. Even if you own a dog pack, i think you do not need to sleep with a wolfdog in house to have a bond with him. Is enough to understand him.Is not that i know everything, of course i have many things to learn, i am eager to know new things, but only when you keep a good sense of reality. As i admire and i respect wolves, i think is better to keep my wolfdog near her ancestors path, is just my oppinion. You want to say that wolf traits in a wolfdog are a bad thing? Well i admire the wolf trait in a wolfdog.I wonder why many breeders want to keep that trait in him?!Finally, if that guy, in that documentary about wolves, was able to establish a bond with a free wolf, a kind of bond that shows respect for their way to be, an owner can do the same with his wolfdog no matter where he live. Also are many good working dogs, including german shepherds from working line, who live only in large pens or in paddocks. And why some think that this dog is not good like a guardian one and i should buy another one?If can be a rescue dog and i admire such dogs, why a wolfdog can't be a guardian dog ?!I have an open mind to learn other things, but you all must understand another oppinion very different from your mentality, that living with an wolfdog inside is simply not our way to be and never will be. Like me are others, just we have this way to understand the life, where the dog has his place and the human another one and we are not bad owners of dogs for that. Hahaha. If i tell to my aunt who is the owner of a rottweiller puppy that she must sleep with his dog in the house or in the bed, because some guys on a forum think like that and are used to do such thing with their own dog, she will die of laughting :)) Ah and my aunt is more than 60 years old hahaha That can be such a good joke for 1 april to tell her that she is not a good owner and the animal protection will take his dog, only because she did not slept in bed with his rotty during winter hahaha. I must be a little tasmanian devil like she wolf Tana and try this;))

Tana 23-01-2013 01:32

Ina (michaelundinaeichhorn ) sorry your name is too difficult to write, so i used copy-paste. So Ina with what you said i can agree, i have respect for your work and such work , made me proud to have myself a little wolfdog. :) But i still not agree to keep such a big dog in a small house like we have, where are also childrens. Is not german shepherd but is still hair in the air and dog smell , this is the truth and we do not agree with such things in our house, not even the childrens. I am sorry the reality is not like in some tv movies with dogs and childrens :))You can keep a very good relation with your dogs even if they live outside, of course that a dog pack is not so harsh like an wolf pack, but inside this dog pack are many good rules for a puppy, like the respect for the oldest and the guardian behaviour. Also i am sure , just watching them, that they live more happy playing with each other in the dog way, than living inside where are a lot of restrictions. In your house maybe are few, in mine are many because is smaller and we are many, each one with his own "bad habit" hahaha. Is what i said. No man can replace another dog when is about playing or teaching another puppy how to behave in a dog pack. In my little girl's pack is a kind of solidarity wich is not like human friendship with a dog. If you have many dogs and you are vet you understand this.This kind of life in a dog pack is very good for my small wolfdog, nobody can replace the experience and the life lessons from the older dog.Why to say that an owner of wolfdog can't understand his dogs just because he live outside? My house is not big, but my yard i think is large enough.I am sorry is not bigger but is inside a town, not in the country side.The bond can be, no matter where your wolfdog live. Is such a falsity to pretend you are in the same pack only because you sleep with your wolfdog in the bed. Hahaha. Of course they are family outside too. A real wolf or dog pack anyway is far away from human rules is what i said and what you wrote confirm this is the truth. Even if you own a dog pack, i think you do not need to sleep with a wolfdog in house to have a bond with him. Is enough to understand him.Is not that i know everything, of course i have many things to learn, i am eager to know new things, but only when you keep a good sense of reality. As i admire and i respect wolves, i think is better to keep my wolfdog near her ancestors path, is just my oppinion. You want to say that wolf traits in a wolfdog are a bad thing? Well i admire the wolf trait in a wolfdog.I wonder why many breeders want to keep that trait in him?!Finally, if that guy, in that documentary about wolves, was able to establish a bond with a free wolf, a kind of bond that shows respect for their way to be, an owner can do the same with his wolfdog no matter where he live. Also are many good working dogs, including german shepherds from working line, who live only in large pens or in paddocks. And why some think that this dog is not good like a guardian one and i should buy another one?If can be a rescue dog and i admire such dogs, why a wolfdog can't be a guardian dog ?!I have an open mind to learn other things, but you all must understand another oppinion very different from your mentality, that living with an wolfdog inside is simply not our way to be and never will be. Like me are others and this way to understand the life, where the dog has his place and the human another one, will not make all who thinks in another way, bad owners of dogs. If i tell to my aunt who is the owner of a rottweiller puppy that she must sleep with his dog in the house or in the bed, because some guys on a forum think like that and are used to do so with their own dog, she will die of laughting :))So each one can keep the dog as he/she want but not try to tell others what to do. Ah and my aunt is more than 60 years old hahaha That is a such a good joke for 1 april to tell her that she is not a good owner and the animal protection will take his dog, because she did not slept in bed with his rotty during winter hahaha

Tana 23-01-2013 01:54

Yukidomari and Angelika i really do not want to visit your houses:)). I am sure my wolfdog Tana at 5 months old, can find there a nice spot eventually and something to do undisturbed. But i am still a "misguided romantic" like many normal people here, millions i may say, who have dogs outside all the time, from many races, from many years and use them for guarding houses.They never imagined that are people who think they should keep the dog inside and instead they must protect the dog to sleep well hahaha So i still keep my family inside winter and dog outside and not viceversa. Have a pleasant night with your dogs :))) Is late here so excuse me...

yukidomari 23-01-2013 04:35

you are welcome not to visit :lol:

I have no problem if you want to keep your dog outside - but I find it hilarious that somehow it's associated with better temperament for training or working, or that a house with a dog inside constantly has shit in it... :lol:

I also don't understand the correlation between interactions with dogs and dogs learning from one another, with living outside..

and lastly, most normal people seek to have a domesticated dog to keep companionship and/or for working, not to somehow have a fantasy that keeping a domesticated dog outside returns it to some wild state.

vila 23-01-2013 11:54

I now see that there must be a cultural difference to the way of thinking about this subject. In fact I would say that for me it almost seems I'm trapped in Twilight zone episode, where the person has all of their point of views different from yours. It's also like listening to someone from the past, at least like 50 years ago when animals had no place being in the house. Looks like the majority of Romanian people keep dogs outside, but most countries here in Europe and USA don't have a problem with that I guess. That of course doesn't mean all dogs sleep on beds! If there is one thing I hope Tana at least sees that the indoor arrangement doens't necessarily make a dog unuseful. Vila has strong guarding instincts and she still guards the house. The instinct has more to do with character and genetics. Also a socialized dog is also one who has dog friends. That is why we are almost never alone on our walks and trips, she learned a lot of good behavior from her many constant dog friends (at least 30) and they helped me a lot. Being with two dogs in one place is just 1 life experience for her in my point of view. Do you take them for walks or trips so they learn new things, new smells and tastes? I'm just asking because there seems to be no mentioning of actually doing something with your dogs. Or is that also a cultural difference? And I'm being serious, not trying to be sarcastic.

michaelundinaeichhorn 23-01-2013 12:33

Tana I think you got some things wrong. You can have a good bond to a dog living outside if you spend a lot of time with it and also a lot of time with it alone without other dogs. Also a dog indoors can learn the same things from other dogs like living outside. If you don´t want dogs in your house that is your decision as long as your dog gets enough attention it doesn´t matter that much.
What people deny here is that dogs that are kept in the house are not as good as guardians or on other work - and by the way it is proofen that children that grow up with pets are healthier than the totally clean kept ones.

Of course wolfdogs (CSW ones and not Saarloos or Hybrids) can be good guards but also if you want protection going further than just to protect your area you will find that they will only protect you outside if they see you as a member of their pack why else should they bother. My dogs all are good guards but also they guard when we are not at home or when they get the feeling we need help, otherwise they will tolerate everybody without being especially told.
Also about the wolf -traits: To guard is absolutely no wolf trait, to follow any commands is not wolf trait, to bond to people is no wolf trait (to have some kind of relationship of tolerating somebody is something very different to bonding) if you want to get some kind of true relationsship to a wolf you have to handraise it and this relationship will be very different to the one you will have to a dog. So if I want any wolf traits in my wolfdogs I want the endurance, the physical fitness, the nose and the cleverness but for sure not the wolflike character as I know very well that wolves can never be good pets.

Ina

Shadowlands 23-01-2013 18:20

oops - sorry...

tupacs2legs 23-01-2013 21:11

[quote=Tana;448784]
Quote:

Do you really think that such dog who slept all his life in the house, if some day is lost in the wilderness, is able to survive and adapt,
one of my siberian huskies,born in my house,lives in my house managed to survive one month on his own....

also my oldest csv makes himself as small as a poodle curled up next to me on my bed..

the theory a working dog should be kept outside stems from old gundog theories that the dog starved of attention will work better for you :(

....also,i dont want a pet wolf i want my csv's which bond very strongly to their humans....equally left to their own devices,outside,with no boundaries taught ,will act 'wild' through boredom and lack of socialisation :(

TimoleonVieta 29-01-2013 17:25

Sorry if I have not read the whole thread as it seemed at some points to descend into rather too opinionated arguement for my concentration to deal with.

Anyhow from the parts of the thread I have read I would like to add something.

The original question of how many people raise their dogs outside I doubt could be correctly answered in this forum as they may be shot down from their first post & never want to post another comment. I can however tell you this; that the most obedient dog I ever had as my companion lived outdoors for the first 5 years of her life. The second five years she was a home dweller. The change at 5 years was caused by a change in my lifestyle & location. For the first five years of her life I was not allowed to being her inside so it was through personal choice to have her as a young puppy but the condition of living outdoors was given to us.

& so I can tell you only that she was perfect with children, would come all around the country with me with no lead & perfect manners. Despite being deaf she won a dog show for obedience & was something of a role model to other dog owners to be quite honest. Her training was very positive & I am sure her acute deafness helped us in many ways to strengthen our bond.

The other dogs that lived with her during these outside years I could also take into the country or city & play guitar in the street where they would wait the day with no lead by my side.

The second five years, nothing changed in her behaviour when she lived inside. She was impeccably behaved always clean & much loved by all who met her.

I do not like to see such opinionated arguements about dogs. For everything that we know is after all only an opinion. The particular dog I refer too is a collie, but I have no doubt that if I had raised Apogee my CSV in the same way the results would be similar. & as anyone that knows me can testify to have a dog that lives outside does not need to inhibit the bond you have in any way. That is something that entirely depends on the relationship between you & your dog & the love & effort that is put it.

Good luck with your dog!


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