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-   -   Penn Hip method (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8227)

GalomyOak 05-05-2008 22:03

Penn Hip method
 
A little off topic - but I am curious, in Europe, or elsewhere, is it common to use what we call in the US the "Penn Hip method" to test for HD? Does the FCI require a particular test? We generally test through the OFA at 2 years of age, but this testing is gaining in popularity here, and can offer results at 4 months of age.

http://www.pennhip.org/

Just curious!:)

michaelundinaeichhorn 06-05-2008 08:24

It is not usually used but it has been published several times the last month or year. I think it will get more and more popular the next years.

Rona 30-01-2010 22:23

On recieving a CD with several X-ray pictures of my dog's joints, there was one, which the vet indicated as made by Pen Hip method.

Could somebody explain in simple words (without medical jargon ;)) what the difference between the classical method and the Pen Hip is?

Luckily Lorka's joints were OK on all photos, but I'm just curious: could the dog have different results if the joints were tested by different methods?

jmvdwiel 30-01-2010 22:55

the penhip methode measures the laxity from the hips, so how much space you can make in the hip joint. and looks for deformations in the hip.

The 'normal' method only looks for deformations.

In holland you have to make the 'normal' hip xray, you do not have a real choice. And yes you can make the penhip in holland but it can not be evaluated officially in holland and I think the evaluation is done in the USA.

Rona 31-01-2010 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel (Bericht 273652)
the penhip methode measures the laxity from the hips, so how much space you can make in the hip joint. and looks for deformations in the hip.

The 'normal' method only looks for deformations.

:gent, now I understand :)

GalomyOak 31-01-2010 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 273689)
:gent, now I understand :)

There are some photos that describe the process on the website:
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhi...5/Default.aspx
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhi...2/Default.aspx

There are 3 sets of x-rays taken during an official PennHip evaluation - one set is identical to the ones (at least for OFA, I don't know about other countries) used in a normal, standard evaluation that is "judged". So if someone does decide to make a PennHip evaluation, the vet only needs to make an extra set of that film at the same time to submit to the normal registry for their country. PennHip also has a vet (or might be more than one) look for deformities in that view - if you look at a report, it will say if dog has "DJD" = degenerative joint disease = typically HD.

There is a special tool used in PennHip x-rays that extends, or pulls the joint out - showing the laxity/looseness of the tendon.

Yes, all films must be submitted to the University of Pennsylvania - where they use results in research. It also makes the controls and results more accurate - since it is required that owners allow the dog's results to be used in statistics for the breed, in addition to the training required of all vets taking the x-ray, and the numerical measurement.
:)

Rona 01-02-2010 09:24

Thanks Marcy :)
Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 273701)
There is a special tool used in PennHip x-rays that extends, or pulls the joint out - showing the laxity/looseness of the tendon.

I suppose this was the element mentioned by the vet radiologist who did the test on Lorka. 8)

I was wondering - do you think your dog's result become worse because mild HD developed between the first and second tests, or the penhip method was more reliable and showed what the classical tests did not show?

elf 01-02-2010 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...s/viewpost.gif
the penhip methode measures the laxity from the hips, so how much space you can make in the hip joint. and looks for deformations in the hip.

The 'normal' method only looks for deformations.


Quote:

:gent, now I understand :)

I understood Norberg angle was a quantitative measure of passive laxity.

GalomyOak 01-02-2010 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 273937)
Thanks Marcy :)

I suppose this was the element mentioned by the vet radiologist who did the test on Lorka. 8)

I was wondering - do you think your dog's result become worse because mild HD developed between the first and second tests, or the penhip method was more reliable and showed what the classical tests did not show?

It's hard to make predictions...PennHip was the first test, which DID NOT show the HD in the standard (OFA) view. I think that test is judged by a panel of 3 vets (blindly), but it might just be one, I'm not sure. OFA films are judged blindly by 3 different vets, with the result being what 2 of 3 diagnose - according to the OFA website, this method has high reliability. There is that "human element" in reading films (which causes a degree of error) which could alter results. And of course, even with PennHip, it requires a human to position the joints. I really, really trust my vets - I have faith that they gave me good films. But again, there is the "human element". I didn't see the 2nd (OFA film), but did see the first (PennHip). Even the examining vet didn't notice any problem with the first, and I (though I am certainly no expert) didn't see anything with the first film either. Roni has definitely changed in structure - more muscle, more filled out, definitely not fat - since 18 months. I think it's quite possible he had a later onset of HD in his left hip. I can only trust that there is a reason OFA requires dogs to be 24 months before they give official results. Since PennHip measures how far the ligament streches (this does not change too much after the age of 4 months, and is hereditary), and OFA looks only for changes as a result of HD - it's a bit difficult to compare the 2 methods.

If it didn't require anethesia, I would do this same "test" of x-raying at 18 and 24 months with all of my dogs...the science is interesting. But, I don't want to put my dogs at risk for my science experiment only.... I only did the OFA films on chance - when I did the PennHip tests, I didn't realize the extent of ED in the breed. I now realize how much it is in our breed - I wanted to do ED tests (which were normal) before I bred, so figured I would do the extra hip films at the same time. The HD results were a surprise, for sure.

PennHip recommends breeding dogs in the "tightest" half of the breed - statistics are recorded after 20 dogs have been PennHip tested for each breed, until then the CSV is compared to "all other breeds". It's almost impossible for a dog with a number <.30 to develop HD. For most breeds .30 -.40 has only a 10-15% chance of developing HD. With a score >.70, it is a very high probability the dog will develop HD. But.....this is all breed specific too. GSDs develop HD at a much lower number than other breeds, as shown by this chart:
http://www.pennhip.org/djdprobability.html

The theory has been this trend is influenced by the "tucked up" structure/movement of the GSD - which we don't have with the CSV! Roni had numbers .38/.39 - pretty low (in the 10-15% range, and better than 80% of dogs of all breeds!). Maybe he was just the unlucky 1 in 10. But, maybe there is something more to the genetics of the GSD (not just the structure) that causes a lower "threshold" - which could also give the CSV the possibility to develop HD even with a "tight" ligament...like I said, the science is interesting - for the CSV and the GSD (a big influence on the CSV genetics). It will be interesting to see how Roni's HD progresses as he gets older - with a low score, hopefully it will stay at mild (C) - but if it gets worse, that also has serious implications for the heredibility at a low number.

Anthea had low (good) scores (.23/.37) and consistently excellent (A1) results, I think she is genuinely healthy, so...I am hopeful this will offset potential problems from Roni in my 4 pups - it seems to frequently be the case with other CSV breeders who have bred parents with A and C hips. Of course the pups will also have x-rays - at 24 months.;-)

It would be cool if the film dates were a part of the database - to compare trends at different ages for HD - if a higher percentage of dogs are diagnosed HD positive at 12, 16, 18, 24, 36 months. As a breeder, I'd really like to have the most reliable results - taken at the most reliable age - to have the best chance to produce healthy results in litters - even if it means waiting 2-3 years to breed.

Marcy

01-02-2010 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 274128)
As a breeder, I'd really like to have the most reliable results - taken at the most reliable age - to have the best chance to produce healthy results in litters - even if it means waiting 2-3 years to breed.

Marcy

Even though I'm years away from being in your position, this is exactly how I feel on the subject. :) I never understood what the big hurry was with breeding dogs at a young age when the goal is to produce the most sound animals possible (this is with ALL dog breeding, not just the CsV). When it can take 3-4 years for a dog to properly fill out and develop, why would anyone want to breed dogs before they know exactly what they are going to get? Not to mention the strain it puts on a young dam. I personally don't trust any hip results prior to 24 months, and would be more apt to trust scores done even a year past that. I also wouldn't breed a dog younger than 3 years of age, especially when it comes to dogs where working ability and structure should be so influential to breeding. I also put more stock in confirmation titles won at a little bit of an older age than a dog who finishes early. Yes, the dog might be a prime example of the breed as an adolescent, but there's no telling what the dog will fill out to look like! ;) I know I don't have the most common beliefs on breeding, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. :)

Also, thanks, Marcy, for all the Penn Hip info! I was only ever aware of OFA, so it's great to know there's a second option out there. It would probably be most beneficial for breeders in the US to do like you've done, and get scores through both groups since there are obviously discrepancies and the human factor you've pointed out. :)

buidelwolf 01-02-2010 22:49

I did the Penn Hip test too for my dog Lucky ( Delan van Hiemrod ) when he was 4 months old. The Hip evaluation report was excellent according to my vet and indeed the evaluation was made in USA (PennHip analysis center, Malvern). If I have understood, Lucky is the first Csv which had the Penn Hip test.

GalomyOak 02-02-2010 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by buidelwolf (Bericht 274268)
I did the Penn Hip test too for my dog Lucky ( Delan van Hiemrod ) when he was 4 months old. The Hip evaluation report was excellent according to my vet and indeed the evaluation was made in USA (PennHip analysis center, Malvern). If I have understood, Lucky is the first Csv which had the Penn Hip test.

Yes, I think it's quite possible he was the first! That's really cool! So, now there only needs to be 17 more CSVs tested to reach the golden number of 20 for breed statistics to start being specific! Can you recall what his results were? Now I am very curious! :thumbs

Thanks for the info! And congratulations for good results!
Marcy

Rona 02-02-2010 12:51

Thanks for the explanations Marcy. Since I have a set of films for the penhip evalution I could send them to reduce the number to 16... ;-).

Just wonder how to arrange this technically. Can I post the CD, or does it have to be my vet?

buidelwolf 02-02-2010 20:12

Quote:

Can you recall what his results were?
Left:
Distraction Index: 0.25
Degenerative Joint Disease: None
Cavitation: No
Other findings: Not applicable

Right:
Distraction Index: 0.19
Degenerative Joint Disease: None
Cavitation: No
Other findings: Not applicable

The PennHip Analysis Center sent the report to my vet, together with a CD-Rom with the photos. They had contact about the fact the center could not compare the results with the average scores within the breed, because my dog was the first one of the breed to have undergone the Penn Hip test, according to the center. So they compared it with the average of comparable breeds of about similar size (GSD's?) and marked the results as excellent.

GalomyOak 03-02-2010 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by buidelwolf (Bericht 274702)
Left:
Distraction Index: 0.25
Degenerative Joint Disease: None
Cavitation: No
Other findings: Not applicable

Right:
Distraction Index: 0.19
Degenerative Joint Disease: None
Cavitation: No
Other findings: Not applicable

The PennHip Analysis Center sent the report to my vet, together with a CD-Rom with the photos. They had contact about the fact the center could not compare the results with the average scores within the breed, because my dog was the first one of the breed to have undergone the Penn Hip test, according to the center. So they compared it with the average of comparable breeds of about similar size (GSD's?) and marked the results as excellent.

That's really great! Those are certainly excellent results! Thank you for the information, and again congratulations!

Marcy

GalomyOak 03-02-2010 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 274475)
Thanks for the explanations Marcy. Since I have a set of films for the penhip evalution I could send them to reduce the number to 16... ;-).

Just wonder how to arrange this technically. Can I post the CD, or does it have to be my vet?

Wow! Thank you! What a great offer!

According to the website, the films must be sent in by the vet (who must also be certified, or "in training" from PennHip). The address and more info can be found here:
http://research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhi...9/Default.aspx

Take care!!!!
Marcy

tupacs2legs 03-02-2010 11:56

hi :)

i enquired about the PennHip method..as i am a vn i thought we could take the pictures at my surgery and send them on (like for bva hip scoring)
not so :cry:

the vet has to be 'licensed' in the method :?:?:?

Rona 03-02-2010 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs (Bericht 274945)
hi :)
i enquired about the PennHip method..as i am a vn i thought we could take the pictures at my surgery and send them on (like for bva hip scoring)
not so :cry:
the vet has to be 'licensed' in the method :?:?:?

I've inquired, too.:lol: My vet will contact the licenced Polish vet about this case. They both use exactly the same American equipment, and my vet has also been trained in Pen Hip method. He didn't bother to apply for the licence, because so far there has been no demand for the tests here.

I definitely won't have my dog put under anesthethics again solely for scientific reasons, but if Lorka's films can help to build the base for the CSV, I'll ask the licenced vet to send them to Pensylvania.

I don't need the official, certfied Pen Hip results, anyway. :)

GalomyOak 19-05-2011 21:16

I recently had contact with PennHip. We currently have 9 CSVs that have been tested so far. 11 more to go until we can start using the test as a reliable piece of data for breeding! ;-)

I recently got results that I was very happy with for my male, Arimminum Wasabogoa:

Left Hip: 0.21, No Degenerative Joint Disease detected
Right Hip: 0.30, No Degenerative Joint Disease detected

yukidomari 19-05-2011 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak (Bericht 378840)
I recently had contact with PennHip. We currently have 9 CSVs that have been tested so far. 11 more to go until we can start using the test as a reliable piece of data for breeding! ;-)

I recently got results that I was very happy with for my male, Arimminum Wasabogoa:

Left Hip: 0.21, No Degenerative Joint Disease detected
Right Hip: 0.30, No Degenerative Joint Disease detected

Congrats on Bongo's results! 11 shouldn't be too hard! Just have owners of "A" and upcoming "B" litter use PennHip and you'll almost be there!

ETA: I had a passing thought about the 20 results needed for baseline - does it matter if most of the subjects are related? Would unrelated subjects provided more 'accurate' results? Or does it not matter at all?


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