Forming a breed club in the US
 

Hello,

I am part of a group of owners in the US that is attempting to create a national breed club for the CSV. Obviously, this has it's difficulties - because of the widespread geography of our country, and because there are not many owners here. All the same, we are very excited, and want to make certain that we have an excellent beginning and foundation.

We would like the opinion, and assistance, if possible, of clubs in other countries (but especially Slovakia, and the Czech Republic) on what is important for a club, and also to eventually read some documents that we will write for the club to check for accuracy. Unfortunately, I am not quite certain of the email contacts for either club - could somebody provide me with that information?

Also, if there is anyone from outside (or of course, inside) the US that would be interested in joining our email list about the future club, please PM me, and I will add you on. We are very thankful for any help or thoughts that are offered!

Marcy Goldstone

Hi Marcy,
I think, that through forum, you dont get any oficial answer from clubs. Simpliest way is send a email of mail to both clubs with your questions and wishes.

Thanks Pavel! That was part of my question - who is the best person to contact from the clubs - and what is the email for these people? :)
I have a friend who speaks Slovakian, and I can read French fairly well, but I don't consider myself to be very good at speaking any language other than English...:stupido

I think I may have answered at least part of my own question while I was browsing another thread. Is [email protected] the correct address for what we need?

Yes slovakian contact is correct and contact to leader of CZ Club is [email protected]

No answers to offer
 

Hi marcy. I don't have any answers for you but when you are ready to sell any of your CZW pups I am very interested in acquiring one as a pet. I recently had to have my shepard/wolf dog put down and I really miss her. We had a great relationship and i think I can have a another relationship lke that with another wolf dog. Peter Roth

Hi Marcy, I am the official contact for the Slovak club, you can write me at info @ csv . sk (that's the official one), or at saschia @ wolfdog . org (that one I use and check more often). Sorry for the format but I hate spam from robots.

And congratulations for making a club, I hope you will be succesfull.

Thanks Saschia (and Pavel, from earlier)!

Right now, I think the club "concept" is on hold, at least for a little while. It is very difficult to pull just a few people together from such a large geographic area to do the normal "official business" of a club. It was also a big loss with the passing of John Slawek earlier...:cry:I do communicate with the other owners here though, and it is very nice to have a network in the US, even if it is not a club yet. I think with time, a club will evolve - it will be very necessary to maintain good breeding policies, and also provide a place for education and support for all CSV owners here. So, for now, I am just trying to learn as much as I can on my own - in the US with my own dogs, and the internet, and also in Europe. I reallllly look forward to seeing a bonitation and and some other events (conformation and working) in the home countries not too far from now!For sure, when the wonderful day arrives when we do have a club in the US, I hope to maintain very close contact with both the Slovakian club and Czech club.

All of the best,
Marcy

Hi Marcy, I'm really impressed by your attitude and approach to breeding CSVs in the USA...:) If people like you - responsible, ethical and willing to learn from experts get involved in developing the breed in America, if the owners manage to build a network of enthusiasts and gain solid competence BEFORE they start breeding, I'm sure CSVs will be in good hands and have better prospects than in another "non-European country" :rock_3 I honestly appreaciate your transparent plans and clear policies and offer my support however limited it may be.8)

Anyway, see you soon in Krakow:)
Rona

Thanks! I really can't wait until April! I think it will be so much more fun to talk in person!

I think it will take a lot of effort before the breed is considered "developed" here, and hopefully, lots of years - we have a saying here: "You must wait for all good things". There is no rush; if somebody in the US is really determined to buy a CSV, they can buy one in Europe - so there is no need here to breed for the overall good of the CSV, especially with our limited bloodlines, no experienced judges of the breed, and no bonitations...that means there is a nice freedom here only to breed if conditions are just right - perfect new families lined up, good health, good characters, interesting match with good genetic diversity, good exterior, working titles obtained, etc.

Do widzenia (I think:p), Rona!

Marcy

hi, so are you going to tell us the name of the non European country ? funny all your emails have to have a pop at someone or another country, so please Rona inlighten us all to which non European country you talk about and why? regards pacino eagerly awaiting your reply as i am sure many others are as well.....

I've always thought UK was geographically part of Europe and politically a member of European Union... was I mistaken? :shock:

So, finally, I think we will have a website for our very informal "club" - but, hopefully something we can grow and move forward from.

I am asking for the help of the wolfdog community...

1. What would be some useful links to add to our site? For instance: CSV clubs from different countries, links to online European registration databases, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of links I have not stumbled upon - and, they do not need to be in English.;-)

2. Is there anyone that would be willing to share some photos for a gallery (with credit given to the photographer, of course)? I think it would be especially to useful to have some photos of very correct conformation, working photos, bonitations, etc. My biggest goal with these photos is to open the eyes of newcomers to the wonderful possibilities, versatility, dedication and hard work of breeders up to this point, and of course, the beauty of our breed. Photos can be sent to: [email protected]

Thank you in advance!

Marcy

I know this thread is almost a year old but you have our support, Marcy.

Marcy,

I hope that if a breed club is established, it will be one of the stricter breed clubs out there. There is a huge variety of breed clubs, standards, bylaws, and who they will or will not list as breeders on their site.. I think the stricter ones like the French Bulldog club (in the US, breeders will not appear on referral or list if they have not been with the club for at least 3 years and have not bred at least 1 dog to have titled CH.)

Then there are clubs that seem like just about anything goes. Not a whole lot of clubs mandate relevant health testing.. it's all just pretty much 'research your breeder and even if these breeders appear on our list, we do not explicitly endorse them' type deals.

Personally, I would like very much to see a club that requires at the least the mandatory relevant health testing of breeding dogs in order to be listed, as well as minimum ages to be bred. One of our dogs' breed club requires new owners to submit their dog to their database after an examination at 15 months by a vet.. information like size, health problems that have appeared, etc etc are recorded there.

It seems very similar to a bonitation and the database available here and I hope that the future CSV club of america will have something similar.

Good points, Yukidomari.

I think the international vlcak community would like to see every dog FCI certified (hips) before breeding. I'm also thinking CERF (I think it's an eye?) tested also.

Maybe we could also look at the Sieger standard with GSDs - only dogs with working and show titles will be on the referral list. Here in the US you can easily tell working lines from show lines (this is very obvious in malinois). What working titles will have to be worked out. It is fairly easy for any dog to get a CGC and if it gets the CGC then it's only one more step to get a BH. Maybe SchH1 or obedience titles?

Hips/elbows and CERF sounds like a good start!

Sieger standards of Germany? Well it's easy to tell GSD from West German show lines, even if they require SchH titles.. SchH is a sport.. a dog could certainly pass SchH1 and not be able to be put under any real working situation. Course, it's also easy to tell which is American, and which are DDR as well.. It's all a big controversy, of course, I'm not criticizing one way or the other.. many, MANY people criticize American standard GSDs, but a large number of people also criticize West German show GSDs, even if they have a SchH title..

I agree that something needs to be there, more than just a conformation CH. like can be permissible for companions or toy dogs, but above that, well, it's so very tricky. I wish that there really wasn't a need for titles, that people could just evaluate their dog fairly and honestly, like how many landrace breeds came to be, but it appears in this day and age, without titles, 99.999% of the time you're just looking at a breeder who is kennel-blind. :(

The German "Working" Shepherd lines are a good example that sport exams of the old type like SchH etc. don´t help much, in this special case looking at character they made things worse.
The German Police and Border Patrol often buys dogs out of other countries or changed to Mallinois beacause the German dogs often are not usable because of health and character.
By breeding for easy obidience and high prey instinct they got extremly excitable (in the meaning of too aroused) dogs that are too nervous for real work (in the sense of work not sport) and switch in emotions very quickly what makes many of them not reliable. And many of them are in no way healthier than the show lines. The lines of Eastern Germany were the old type of good working dogs that also were healthier but mostly got mixed up with the Western Germany type and are very hard to find nowadays.

Ina

Don't forget in Sieger shows it is required to keep the dog at a trot for a while (I don't know exactly how long but I think more people can't do it for being out of shape). :)

SchH1 isn't that easy to obtain (and I only used that as an example) but holds true to the vlcak's reason for existence - tracking, protection, and obedience. (Too bad the SchH2 and SchH3 trials are very similar to the 1). I think we should start looking into schutzhund with our vlcaks (hell, they are descendants of working line GSDs - and the Czech Republic / Czechoslovakia made some of the best working line GSDs).

As for real working - what should be considered real working? I am sure most SchH3 dogs don't do much of the schutzhund work outside of the field (except obedience). I don't think the CsV was created to herd but if it's going to be in the herding group, then maybe we should also look into that.

Making the "official" breed club - I've gotten no response from the ABLA (American Belgian Laekenois Assoc) so I've asked Fred Lanting to reach out to the Shiloh Shepherd community to find out what they did to form the "official" club - as well as any costs that were associated with the formation and annual costs. While I understand that money can be tight with the members at this time, I'd hate to see someone else come in and form the club without the community's (or breed's) best interests in mind. Next thing we know we could have a commercial breeder breeding anything and calling it a vlcak.

I think the club should continue to be called the "Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America" (CsVCA) and continue to use Marcy's site:

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/

As the club's site. To keep cybersquatters away, I did register czechoslovakianvlcak.com and csvca.org and pointed them to Marcy's site. (.com is sill king - most people will type that in and .org because it suits an "organization" and people will type that in). I also added her site on the Wikipedia page on vlcaks.

Sadly, though, when you type VLCAK into Google, some of the top sites that come up still call them wolf hybrids. We need to get those pushed down in the rankings so people can see the truth.

Edit: I see the APRI, ACR, and DRA all recognize the vlcak as a breed - let's try to stay away from these registries and *not* accept them for AKC registration (if we have a choice).

I'm going to preface this with my standard, "I don't own a CsV yet, so I can't rate from experience, but..." ;)

I personally think a better test of historical CsV character would be to focus on obedience, tracking, and endurance (if there even is such a thing here!) rather than Schutzhund (although, I would see that as still being perfectly acceptable in regards to registry with the CsVCA). I think AKC tracking is more in line with what the CsV was originally bred for than the tracking in Schutzhund. AKC tracking is looser, giving the dog more freedom to do its job in its own way as opposed to having to follow strict rules when tracking. I think it would be a shame to lose the CsV's inherent independent thought when it comes to work because a more biddable dog is favored because it scores high as opposed to a dog that may be too smart for the sport & apt to take shortcuts because it has the proper temperament.

I also think that there should be an exception for actual working dogs, even if there isn't a title involved. CsVs show a LOT of promise as search & rescue dogs (which is what I'd love to do), airport checks/security, police work, etc, and we of course can't discount the dogs that are ACTUALLY going out & doing a job every day! ;)

I feel a little bit differently on the topic of working titles/sports. The CsV was bred to be a Border Patrol dog. Period. That means BITEWORK. Schutzhund was designed to test the working abilities of dogs used in police/military work, and in many cases it still is relied on to prove the working ability of a dog. DVG supports all breeds, the SV is solely a GSD organization. Vlcaks descended from GSDs that had to earn titles in order to be bred. I am sure that the original Vlcak breeding program relied on similar tests to make sure they were breeding only the best.
I also disagree in regards to using AKC Tracking ("trailing," really) - I have been to a multitude of AKC Tracking events, and it seemed to me very few of the dogs actually followed scent as much as they "sighted" the marker flags! There is no doubt in SchH Tracking - it's much stricter. There is an "AD" Endurance title in SchH. Personally, I think that we should set our standards high in order to preserve the working ability of the breed. Yes, it takes time. Yes, it takes commitment, but do we really want to see the CsV turn into the misery that is the American GSD? I shudder at the thought of a pretty dog with no brains.
I would like to see a minimum of a BH, AD, WD (Watchdog title - bitework & obedience), or a SchH1. Or perhaps we could develop our own tests to put a Vlcak through to see if it has the working abilities we prize. I know the Beauceron people have their own sort of Temperament Test. I would be happy with a CD or a HIC - just SOMETHING to prove work ethic and solid temperament. We would be the first AKC breed club to require that, and I think we should pave the way!

Lots of people will disagree, for sure.. maybe even you.. but I feel that some American bred GSDs - those born for the express purpose of pet-ownership - is a FINE institution with some breeders in it for 20-30 years and producing dogs with many, many repeat owners. It is not right to paint them all with the same brush. No, those dogs are not in it for the work, and certainly do not conform to 'standards' (perhaps for the better..), and probably cannot do any of the traditional bite work, but they are nonetheless good family dogs.. it does no favors to the average home looking for a pet dog to buy a working line Czech bred working dog. I personally think that a select few American kennels NOT breeding to work qualities cannot be criticized any more than the next breeder.

Very, very exceedingly few but I can think of a few kennels that agree with me.

Quite a few people would argue that the SchH titled West Germany dogs are 'disasters' too.

I respect your opinions, Luna's mom, I'm just offering another POV.. I do think it is of utmost importance to keep a working dog with working capabilities.. so much so that my next dog, a Vlcak, I *want* to do work with even if that is not what I had in mind. I just don't think it's right, though, to paint all GSDs and implicitly all American GSD breeders, with the same brush. Many, MANY Am and W. German breeders breed for incredibly sporty GSDs - the type that pass SchH but not the type where you see them and say, "yes, that's great, healthy angulation and great working temperament".

I am a FIRM believer that a breed that is attractive AND also bred to work, will always split into work-show lines. I DO believe it is with the combined efforts of the work AND show lines, that any breed - including vlcaks - can achieve greatness.. sadly, many breeds do not choose to work together and instead split into two separate camps - working or show. Dog breeds where only work is valued - let's say, Catahoulas and Alaskan Huskys.. border on recognition of 'breed' because of the huge physical differences that can occur. And dog breeds that are bred mainly on looks - let's say Shelties - are relegated to 'dogs that USED to work'.

I do think that breed clubs that can achieve cooperation really can keep both - kennels that concentrate on conformation working with kennels concentration on work - face it, no dog is PERFECT in both.

Anyway, a big rant, I guess. I hope that the Vlcak go in a direction that is neither extremely one way nor the other. just my humble 2 cents.

Then what's the point in owning a purebred dog if you don't think it should live up to their standard?? :shock:
I think all dogs should be bred to the ORIGINAL standard and used for what they were bred for still. It is so sad to see the difference in the original working line German and Czech GSDs and the present day high strung unhealthy American show line GSD. Of course I think some dogs can just be pets, hell my GSD and CsV are, but I'm glad they still have their natural protection and brains in them and they're doing their job everyday, being my best friend and protector. I hate the temperment in the typical show GSD nowadays and I think all GSD owners here will agree. [Another example is the Border Collie. The difference in the working/show lines is so sad to me... :(] I personally think the GSD is the best family dog ever anyway BECAUSE of their natural guarding instincts and at the same time gentleness. My 3 year old niece fell in love with my GSD and would climb on her and pull her around and tell her to do things [my niece is a natural dog trainer lol] and my Shepherd would obediently follow her around, do tricks for her and not let her out of her sight. I trusted them together with my life and now my sister is getting one for her because of the bond and trust they had together. But if you want just a pet that is easy and predictable, get a Golden Retriever or Lab, don't purposely dumb down GSD's or CsV's [*shudder*] just so average Americans can have a 'pretty' dog with no real purpose.

GSD's and CsV's are both WORKING dogs and I think they can excel at conformation as well as long as we get good judges here in the US that will ACTUALLY judge their standard and temperament like they're supposed too, not based on politics or their personal preferences.
[A lot to ask/hope for I know, but fingers crossed!] :)

"Then what's the point in owning a purebred dog if you don't think it should live up to their standard??"


Standards are up to interpretation. Naturally... all standards differ from not country to country but from breeder to breeder. This is ABSOLUTELY true. No dog today has stayed true to 'original' standard. That is the point of a breed club, the point of shows, the point of breeders, to improve and change the breed as it is towards a better future.

Breeds change throughout time - that is indisputable, too. The GSD was built, pre-war, as a Shepherd dog, but the use quickly changed to an all around military working dog. That itself is a change and I hardly see anyone using GSDs for herding, at least as efficiently as other specialized herders. Breeds, like anything else human made, is open to interpretation and social evolution. And there is nothing wrong with that. Dogs can't all be bred to original use. That would mean that English mastiffs would still be war dogs, that Tosa-ken are still used for dog fighting, Bulldogs for bull baiting, and Chis used for sacrificial rites. Wolfhounds don't have anymore wolves to hunt; Lundehunds don't have any more puffins to catch, and many small ratters live in houses with no more rats to be caught. The last I saw a Chinese Crested used for ratting, was, well, never...

Labs and other Retrievers are not seen internationally as good family dogs either, just for your information. Field bred labs are SO different from bench bred, and it's not right to assume otherwise. Are you assuming that there aren't working labs or kennels breeding field labs and retrievers? They are actually one of the THE original breeds, before military work, that existed far before specialized police work of modern day GSDs.

IF your GSD was a true working line GSD with a working temperament, do you think you would not have had to do any work with it to satisfy it? Do you know that GSDs were one of the most popular family dogs, and were not always 'known' for their sharp & hard character? If most homes are cut out to care, instead, for 'easy' retrievers, they why are there so many labs and retrievers that are in shelters and rescues? Obviously, they are not as easy as people make them out to be.. and the labs that you think are 'easy' are just another manifestation of pet-line dogs.

I tend to think there needs to be SOME leeway, as well. Although I do feel that there needs to be some sort of title requirement in the club's ethics aside from confirmation, and despite the fact that a uniform look and temperament is desired, I feel that some specifics of breeding should be left to the individual breeder. Vision of how a breed should be developed is a key element to breeding, and I don't think that the "art" should be downplayed or stripped away for the sake of uniformity. I think that's where a lot of breeds have gone wrong in the past, because the more specific in breeding you get, the more apt people are to lower the gene pool, which brings out genetic problems.

I think that one of the major places people are going to differ is on how they test their dogs' working ability/aptitude. People are going to have different ideas of what's important in the dog's drive so people are going to want to test differently. This is why I think there should be a varied list of titles and the dogs have to obtain X amount before being OK'd to breed by the club.

That's a great point about the AKC tracking, BTW! haha I never thought of the dogs taking visual cues instead of scent! I guess I just liked the description on paper, the way the CsV trailed was air scenting (from what I understand) not following a scent on the ground, as I think the Schutzhund trial works, right? Also, air scenting is how search & rescue dogs work, which is what I was planning on doing with my dogs, so it would be difficult to work both ways.

As far as bitework & Schutzhund are concerned, and my personal direction for breeding, I'm less concerned with the use of working-like GSDs and more with why the wolf was brought in. With the type of work the dogs were doing, they not only needed endurance, they needed independence. I think that, yes, Schutzhund is a wonderful test of ability, but I think the temperament of a CsV doesn't lend itself well to earning SchH titles (at least higher level ones) and that if a breeding plan were based around the temperament that DID excel at wining titles, part of the CsV's original temperament will be lost. Just personal preference, I think. :)

By 'standard' I mean the original written breed standard from the country of origin. And no, I don't think that should be up to 'interpretation.'
If you read the real original GSD standard then look at what passes in the show ring in the US, you wouldn't even know it was the same breed!
And my POINT is it's obviously not in the best interest of the breed to breed them without healthy hips, without any brains and only to create a certain 'look' that is popular with the judges. I don't think they've 'improved' at all! In the beginning, it didn't matter what the dog looked like, it's temperament and work ethic was more important and I feel like that was a better course for the breed.

As for my GSD, of course I worked with her! And of course she was happy, who are you to judge??!!? She was from half American half German show lines though I never showed her, we did in fact, do herding, agility, obedience, farm work and guarding/patrol work. [Like a real GSD. I'm not saying they have to be in the military or a K9 unit to be a real GSD. I LIKE the farm dog aspect of the breed.]
Sadly she developed hip dysplasia and bone cancer so I couldn't do any real strenuous or competitive work with her but she was a great protector and my best friend and I think a real ambassador for the breed. RIP. :cry:
And the poor health is one of my examples of the poor breeding tactics in this country and why when I get my next GSD I'm going to get a Czech bred DDR working line dog which seem a lot truer to the type of GSD I love so dearly and they actually care about the future of this wonderfull breed. [I think y'all can agree, that American popularity after the war ruined the GSD as it should be. ]

And as for lab/goldens etc, I have nothing against the breeds, I just put them out as an example of a more all around 'family friendly' dog if that's what you're looking for. And ACTUALLY, sporting dogs are the group I'm glad is going away from their original purpose and becoming pets because I DETEST hunters!!! ;-)

"And my POINT is it's obviously not in the best interest of the breed to breed them without healthy hips, without any brains and only to create a certain 'look' that is popular with the judges."

I don't dispute health - health testing is pretty much imperative no matter how you choose to, or not choose to, abide by original standards. And if you want standards, you can see how much original standards have now threatened the Dalmatian. It's just not applicable to apply it across the board. And I disagree that AmGSDs are 'without any brains'. They just have different drives or lack thereof.. again. That is all.


And I never said your GSD was not happy.. and specifically I said working line, but you quantified it yourself by saying she was from American and German show lines - NOT working lines - which is what you kind of implied there should only be.

Actually, also it's not shown that AmGSDs have poorer health, as you claim. It is unsubstantiated, really. When we compare GSDs of ALL lines, all are affected by hip dysplasia and DM, at least. There are plenty of show only lines in Germany, plenty of back yard breeders, and plenty of mills willing to export to the US just like there are in the US.

DDR German dogs are just at the other spectrum of extreme. The German Shepherd Dog was always bred to be a level-headed, well rounded dog, suitable as a family pet as well as work. It was not meant originally to be a dog with extreme drive. People can certainly claim that DDR GSDs are just as bastardized as pet AmGSDs with good cause.


And lastly, thank you for sharing that you detest hunters. Personally, I have admiration for people willing to take the life of an animal and not just simply grab a pack of some meat off a styrofoam plate in a supermarket... and I've been a vegetarian for over 13 years. I have friends who are hunters and their dogs help them indispensably. I'm sorry that you feel that way towards some people who choose not to participate in industrialized animal husbandry or slaughter.

Wow. Okay. I'm not even gonna waste my time on this anymore.

Wrong information !!! CsW was basically create for watching by signal wall (the fence with tiny wires, which by any touching starting alarm). And the most important work was to found trace of the people, which want to cross border. Of course, if dog can good stop the people, then have higher value, but never watch the dog without soldiers, so that the bite work was only the secondary. Primary mission was TRACING !!!

I agree, the main problem is that "second interpretation of standard" often comes because the total "non understanding of what the standard wants", CzW already pass for such problem, its standard is very complet and detailed, but few people and even breeders are able to understand it, so what we can meet are a huge ammount of breeders (and also a huge ammout of juges) able to only judge the head of the dogs having a small idea about the basic of it (like small ears and ambar eyes), but with no idea about how the body should look like, how the dog should move.

When people does not know the standard, they start to select what is more "bautifull" at their eyes and what they think its correct, they will use the excuse that its "his line" or "his way of breeding" or even "his show line" as some people will use the excuse to say "my dog dont need be at standard as its working line", if you look the CzW standard, will see that animals that follow close what the standard says are surely better working animals, a CzW with nice body format according the standard will have more endurance than one with round atipical chest and shorth legs for exemple, but some judges will preffer the short legged heavy animal because its looks "nicer" than the correct one.
The workability and the standard walks togeter, you will see people trying to split it in two for dont accept tat what they're doing is wrong, and its common in all breeds, also called "kennel blindness", its up to the club avoid it and conscientize people and new owners about what is right.

You see, a club that wants working titles, show titles and a restrict selection of the individual looks nice in the paper, but it can be a trap for the bree itself, principaly for a breed like CzW.
Supose in USA you find a owner wich hve a nice CzW with a very rare line, old animal without nothing, no X rays, no dogshows much less working titles, the owner have no will to make it, but he accept make the X rays without problems, you will not be able to use this dog as it should be used because the dog have no titles and shows, you can end to lost a nice bloodline because of a nonense title.
I think the club should help giving all conditions and informing people about how good is work with the dogs and how importand it could be, but not use it as rule for a stud dog.
We cant forget also about the fact that working titles and show titles can influencie in the people choise of a stud, so you can get a very titled dog with ok health results, but terrible line in health and even appearence, being over used because its a "titled dog", it can turn in a huge problem for the breed.

I think would be very nice the club make a breeding comission, with the will of select the mattings, avoiding the lost of lines or the overuse of a single stud, not only that, but also avoiding dangerous matings that can cause unhealty pups or even matings with no interest at all for the future of the breed.
About the request, I think important are the healty tests, when mostly breeders ( and even very experienced ones) have a huge problems for understand the standard, judge their dogs and mates, will not be a FCI or AKC judge that will be able to say if the dog is or not in the standard.
Not much different with the working tests, that you can simply traine a dog with terrible character to make a show in the training field or with the helpler.

I agree with you there. Most optimally, of course, form should always follow function... but then again, in the art of purebred dogs that isn't so clear cut. Form following function in almost all working breeds would probably be best with an open stud book, then, ideally. But I don't know of any breed that is really willing to accept that. And, above that, standards are only written about physical characteristics. Usage of a dog has always been left up to interpretation... original use is a good start, but then again, usage evolves.

Hmmm, well it seems some of the information out there is wrong, if they were primarily bred for "tracking" according to the recent post, however, regardless of whether their primary function was tracking, I cannot believe that a Border Patrol dog was not expected to grip. A main function of most, if not all, Border Patrol dogs is to grip, so a minimum foundation of bitework is necessary. Why else would the CsV breeding program weed out unsuitable character? Any dog can track if it has a nose.
As to the above posts, yes, I think being a pet is not a bad thing, but in ANY litter there are "pet" puppies, so why breed just for that? Max von Stephanitz must be rolling in his grave at the state of the American GSD. I have been in SchH for 17 years and have yet to see an American bred dog in the sport. I also know of no American dogs that serve in police or military functions. Very sad, as we tout ourselves as producing the "best of the best"...
I agree that there will likely always be a difference between dogs bred for show and those for work, but by requiring both working and conformation titles, we can narrow down that division quite a bit.
Since we still have guidance from the founder of the breed, I feel strongly that we should institute rules to keep the standards of the breed high - so we don't go through the same pitfalls that other breeds before have (did you know that the single "reason" that the American GSDs look and act the way they do is due to CH. Lance of Fran-Jo?) with giving up "drive" for "easy in the house" or "popular stud" pedigree bottlenecking (you see that in West German Highlines with Uran v Wildsteigerland). If someone wants a good "pet" they can get a different breed. I don't want to see the CsV turn into a collie... no offense intended - I actually have a collie.

Do you means by open stud book, accept mates with other breeds?

The standars should have the behaviour/temperament description, also as a historical brief, so, the behaviour are not up to the interpretation, maybe the usage can be mistaken, but nothing that a little bit more of study about the breed would not solve.

(I had several quotes but decided to just post since many of them would overlap and editing / re-editing would be a real pain!).

Sadly, dogs that were bred to work split into two factions (for the lack of a better term) - the show people and the working people. Sadly, the working dogs usually don't do well in the show ring because they don't look as nice as the show dogs. As far as I know every breed was engineered for a purpose, to do a job, and none of their jobs was to look nice - so why the stress on their physical look? While I agree structure is very important (hips, build, stamina, etc..) these points are quite often overlooked in the AKC show ring and the same goes with temperament. I've seen very few dogs that do well in the working world and the show world.

As for interpretation - yes, there is room for some interpretation but some aspects there isn't. Take GSDs for example, every standard states "Must show confidence". Not can, not may, not should, MUST. In my book, "must" means 100% of the dogs should have that quality. Sadly, to often I see GSDs in the AKC show ring that are skittish, afraid of other dogs, afraid of the judge, the handler, and even trying their hardest to avoid everything when in the ring - where is the confidence in that? If the standard says "MUST show confidence" then why are these dogs being rewarded? If it's a chance of "well, it's the least bad dog in there" - the judges CAN with hold ribbons - I've seen it before.

"Pet" owned GSDs. Yes, the vast majority of dog owners in the USA want a pet but I think most of them have the wrong dog. If you want a dog that is going to be friends with everyone, love the family, and love strangers then don't get a GSD, get a lab (like Dug in the movie Up). If you really wanted a car that had great gas mileage - would you get an SUV? Nope, you'd get a compact or a hybrid. The same with a GSD - it is a WORKING breed. The breed is meant for herding (with protection implied in that job). Unless you wanted a guardian or a partner, why get a GSD? People looking for a pet need to research breeds and decide on what breed to get before getting the dog.

As Luna's mom said, in every litter there will be dogs that won't stand up to the quality of the breed (it is unavoidable) and yes, those should be adopted out as pets, but they should also have spay / neuter clauses in their contracts (where it is legal) so their genes are not put back into the gene pool.

I don't think that for the most part the art of purebred dogs can simply be put into 'purpose only'. There are a few dogs that are widely purpose bred - see racing greyhounds and Alaskan Huskies.. I've seen true racing greyhounds and those dogs you would hardly even recognize as a greyhound. Alaskan Huskies aren't considered a breed.. people breed them expressly for speed and endurance in snow, and only that. They don't care if they have masks, if they have standing ears, if they are white or grey or all black. They don't care if they are 30lbs or if they are 50lbs. As long as they get the job done and get it done well, sledders breed them, and they don't care what breed it is. Implicit in this is that Alaskan Huskies are a group of mixed breeds bred for work.

And you know what? Those dogs reflect that 100%.. from one Alaskan Husky to the other you will find very little in the way of *any* true type of uniformity. But they do the work. Is that what you're talking about? Then if that's so, why do we need a set of physical standards? Because purebred dogs are about the entire package - BOTH how they look and how they are supposed to act. It doesn't make sense to say looks don't matter and nobody should stress it. Looks are every bit as important to the purebred dog as how they act.

"Take GSDs for example, every standard states "Must show confidence". Not can, not may, not should, MUST."
Right, but this leaves room for interpretation too. One person's judgment of how much confidence is sufficient, differs from another's person's judgment on sufficient confidence. Is a dog that has passed SchH "confident"? Sure, within the boundaries of the sport. But there are many police dogs in training out of SchH kennels that do wash out. Were they not confident enough?

All very complicated questions, indeed.

Nebulosa - Open stud book: Mostly this means dogs of unknown or unregistered parents, who are of-type, can be registered officially into the breed, so to speak. So say you have a dog you think, looks, acts like a CSV. But.. you've no papers and you don't really know.. for all you know it could be a mix. Actually the AKC FSS system works under open stud book.

Luna's mom said, "I have been in SchH for 17 years and have yet to see an American bred dog in the sport."

Have you heard of the American GSD kennel Valiantdale?

Firstly, I didn't mean to open a can of worms! :)
The dictionary definition of a "breed" is "a relatively homogenous group of animals within a species, developed and maintained by humans." According to most registries, that means that the members of said breed must breed "true" - produce similar animals. That's one reason "labrodoodles" aren't a breed - they do not breed true after F1. Alaskan huskies haven't been purpose-bred for as long a time as other breeds like a greyhound (perhaps when they are an older breed we will see more homogenosity)- and though there is a difference between show and racing greyhounds, it is clear they are the same breed.
Part of the reason for the physical standard is not only to maintain "type" but to promote correct structure for that particular breed. It's not for "pretty" as much as for function. For instance, the angulation in the GSD - that is supposed to promote the breed as an efficient trotting dog - covering the most amount of ground with the least amount of steps. The American-Line GSDs took that quite far - so far they now walk on their pasterns and hocks and can no longer get over jumps.
Yes, there is certainly room for interpretation, but some things are just OBVIOUS. I have seen GSDs in the AKC ring hit the deck in fear during the "temperament test" and get FIRST PLACE. There is no question that that is not a correct temperament! The dog should've been excused, but instead, it had a lovely, extreme side gait so was rewarded.
The Vlcak's standard is to maintain both physical structure and type and character traits - "shyness is to be disqualified." That means, to me, that no matter how good and perfectly built a shy dog is, it should not be bred.
Again, there is room for interpretation... Luna can be aloof and hesitant in new situations, but I do not see "shyness." There is no running away or cowering behind me. Perhaps a Labrador person would consider her aloofness "shy" as they are used to a very gregarious breed.
Anyway, the point for me, is to maintain the breed, as best I can, to the standard, by word and "in spirit" - the stuff between the lines that is not written down, like courage, drive and heart. I am a steward of an amazing breed and I don't want to "water it down" just because it is more difficult to live with than a collie... American breeders are famous for doing just that - look at the American Doberman for instance - totally different temperament than the German dogs. The Am-line Dobes are sweet, soft dogs - excellent "pets" but not so good for what they were bred to do.
There are those who argue that the work of dogs has changed, and yes it has, to a degree, but I don't want to sacrifice the working character of the Vlcak just to make it a "good pet"...

Luna's mom, I hope you understand that I actually agree with 99% of the things you said. :)

Just trying to raise a few points usually overlooked, that's all. And BTW AmDobes (we've got one).. you've better believe that the DPCA worked tirelessly throughout the '60s and '70s to bring about what is the AmDobe today, ON PURPOSE, not for lack of caring. Today, they are good for dog sports, precision work, and for stealing beds (ask me! I know :) )

Yeah, I think there are just so many issues at work here, but I don't think it's entirely fair to disparage entire groups/countries/breeds/breeders. For better or worse I think anyone who actually, truly cares about the breed, regardless of direction, is still in it for the right reason and ultimately contributes a large and varied pool from which to choose mates from, and I do think as a whole enriches the breed.

And, certainly some things are for function - fur, angulation, etc. And some standards are for aethetics. Color of hair, color of eyes.. shape of head (does a deeper stop get in the way of work?).. etc.

Maybe will be not bad, if you read some books about situation in Czechoslovakia in years after year 1948. First was practically no dogs needed (its not true 100%, but simply say), because around the western border was high voltage fence. After them was signal wall, but not so, like imagine many people "on west". Mostly was signal wall hounderts up to kilometers before real border line. On some places was kilometres before realy borders made from state police a false border, because people without maps (owned or drawing detail maps of border region was a heavy crime) think, that are just on german or austrian territory and dont hide self more (easy prey for border police). Border police dont need, like in democratic country, on border people catching and arresting. On western border was 1-3 times (I dont right now not exactly rules, because they was changing in the time) call up to stops and then was normally to set gun and shooting. Specially in the years, when starting the experiment with crossing GDS and wolves, get every soldier, which kill the man on border, special reward. Dog was in this years only secondary tool for stoping. Dog was primary for tracing.

I didn't mean to disparage anyone - I have been training dogs and "in dogs" for 17 years now. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but American breeders are well-known for "watering down" working breeds to make them better pets. I don't think that is necessarily in the best interests of the breed. If you love a Malinois, for instance, you take into consideration it is an aggressive breed by nature - if you don't like that, get something else! Don't ruin the working drive because it is more difficult to live with for the Average Joe. That's what worries me about the Vlcak in the United States.
I love Dobes, GSDs, Belgian Shepherds - and it breaks my heart to see what has happened via American Breeders. What happened to the dog that was supposed to be a natural "manstopper"??? Are the Dobe folks really proud of what they've created? I am using the breed just as an example - no offense intended. But really, if you want to get a Dobe or GSD that can "stop a man" you DON'T look at American-line dogs - you go overseas. Pathetic that our police and military have to go the Europe to find dogs that can work... that's what I DON'T want to happen to the Vlcak.

Actually, for the most part, yes. You would not believe how much bad press, bad rep, and what not that has threatened the Dobe. Back in the day Dobes were today's Pittie, and you see the same type of movement of responsible APBTs today, too.. breeding for a more even temperament, less reactive, less dog aggressive. Do *I* agree? Not sure where I stand on that, actually.

And actually, if you think about it, all dogs except those few bred expressly for companionship (and even then, a large number of the littles were ratters) all have a job. Just because almost of today's Rough Collies and Retriever types have been relegated to companionship/family dogs only means that their direction as a breed has gone away from work - not that they were always there from the start.

Again, the whole Europe vs. US divide - should always be kept in mind that Europe has every bit as many poorly bred dogs as anywhere else. Has every bit as many 'working kennels' looking to make a buck, and also lots of kennels willing to ship inferior dogs overseas. Good breeders are good breeders, no matter where they are. And a dog born in Germany is not any 'better' solely based on that.. it can all only be attributed to the individual breeders and breed club that stands behind them.

Isn't this the whole point everyone's trying to make? Don't repeat history! These breeds are being brought up as an example of how real, functional, working dogs have been watered down to the point where they're just soft companion animals with different looks for different tastes. There are plenty of breeds out there that we don't need to turn the CsV into "another pretty face." Divisions in a breed are NOT inevitable if we stop it in its tracks! Just because it happens and it's the norm, it does NOT mean it has to be tolerated!!

I just want to clarify that when I said breeding needs to be open to interpretation (regarding rules of a breed club) I meant in more subtle ways of testing a dog's working character, I don't in any way mean that a breeder could go & say, "Eh, I want my dogs to be more calm & easy to manage, to make great pets!" when the dog should not in any way have that sort of temperament. The whole point of purebred dogs should be breed preservation, which means holding to and testing correct temperament. When a breeder strives to develop their line, it's to come as close as possible to their vision of the breed standard, not to bastardize it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's how I feel on the subject. :twisted:

I'll agree to disagree then. :) My pet Dobe is not the same as my pet Minpin, who simply 'looks different' than one another. :) Surely, they are not working dogs nor are they from working lines, but they have characters though not working drive of their forebears.

I am NOT advocating turning the CSV into a soft companion breed.. :) Just merely musing.

My opinion, for what it's worth...

I absolutely want to see this breed move forward with working goals in mind. But as Nebulosa pointed out, we are not in a place - as a breed - in Europe, and certainly not in the US, to discredit dogs if they don't have titles. The breed doesn't have enough genetic diversity to withstand that kind of pressure on selection at this point. I think it is a very noble goal for the breed/club to reach for one day - and of course there should be controls on breeding with dogs with good health, and no disqualifying features - especially in structure and temperament. I think a breeding commission is an excellent idea.

A few misconceptions about AKC tracking. First off, tracking (ground) and trailing (air) are totally different scent theories - trailing is used in SAR, and typically has a quicker and more efficient accuracy. Tracking trials are completely blind - the flags are only used in training. It's an excellent sport, my CSVs have very deep noses and deviate from the track very little in comparison to many of the other dogs out there (Goldens, GSD, Weimeraner). Don't think it should be used as a sole qualifier of a breedable dog...

Won't get into American v. Europe. I know good and bad breeders of all mentioned breeds in both places. I have an American bred GSD from heavy Swiss and German lines, with Lord vom Gleisd... featured recently. Love her to death, makes me crazy to work with her.:lol:

I am glad these discussions are happening - even if they are uncomfortable. It's important! I think it's also important to keep in mind that ALL of our experiences in the US with the breed are limited - I know my perceptions certainly changed after my visit to Europe last spring where I met many dogs and breeders - important to remember there is still quite a bit of variation within the breed, not everyone's experiences will be the same. ;-)

Marcy

Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.

Thanks for your opinion, Soniakanavle. :)

Hahaha and thanks for the sarcasm. ;-)
My point is, the only reason you've mentioned that you want this breed for is because you 'go hiking a lot.' Um.. ANY breed can hike a lot.
Also you seem to travel a lot by plane, [Japan and back] the one time I flew my CsV [from Montana to California] he had extreme panic attacks the entire flight and it took me a good hour to calm him down in the airport after and the flight crew warned me to never fly with him again, so for his sake I am restricted to driving when I want to travel.
Also I think most CsV [not all I know but it's a thought to consider] have a high prey drive/will chase small animals. Have you thought about what would happen if yours didn't fit in with your Min Pin and other little dog??

See, I'm not just trying to be mean, I just assumed you joined this forum to take real advice from real CsV owners since we have actual experience with the breed and I think it's our duty to warn/weed out potential buyers that might not know what they're getting into. THAT'S my opinion.
A CsV is a lifelong commitment and I waited/researched 6+ years from first wanting one to actually having my dreams come true.
I'm sure there are plenty of dogs in this country, shelter dogs, mutts etc that would love to take a hike with you. ;)

:gulp

Sonia, Jing....

I have had the opportunity to work with both of you in different facets. I have been communicating with Jing for a couple of years now - she has been exploring every crevice of the breed one can in living over here. I had the opportunity to meet her and her friends/family in the past month when they drove down for the day to meet the pack. I also had the opportunity to meet her dogs - and was quite impressed by the level of care and training that was apparent. I believe Jing is stepping into the idea of ownership very carefully, with excellent goals in mind, and an objective frame of mind...and would have no problem, as a breeder, offering her a puppy...

Sonia, you are one of our originals here...a dedicated owner who has a lot to offer to our collective knowledge of the breed in the US. I was really excited when you offered to serve as our Pacific contact! I have not had the opportunity to meet you - but look forward to meeting both you and Flint very soon!

It's cool to have different ideas, and points of view - that's what makes an organization strong. I think things can easily be misinterpreted on the internet too...I really hope we can bury hatchets, put aside prejudgments of one another, and keep things cool - finally the club is building momentum and cohesiveness, which is, above all, what we need right now. Would really hate to lose either of you in this venture!!! ;-)

Marcy

Never mind! We will try to play nice.

I agree with this 100%! :beerchug2 I think it's when it gets to the point where people are too afraid (or feel it's too hopeless) to go against the status quo that you start to get problems where you no longer see different options anymore. I think that's why a lot of breed clubs have the problems they do where they're not willing to admit they have issues, because they resent so much that they've been doing things for so long that they can't fathom that they possibly have gone off course. Even if you don't agree with something, just the act of discussion while you hash things out can make you at least see things you hadn't before and make adaptations accordingly. If you have to "justify" your position on something (the right way, mind you, buy making an actual persuasive argument) it automatically makes you reevaluate your position every time, making it stronger, or possibly making you see where you need to change. It's as good a rule for life is it is with breed clubs. ;)

I'm glad you posted this! I was under the impression that AKC tracking WAS more like trailing because the rules weren't as strict about the dog keeping its nose to the ground. I also don't think ANY of the sports we've been talking about should be used as a sole qualifier of breedable stock. ;) There are obviously going to be a lot of things at play regarding testing dogs, and I feel that if we are going to at the very least (as a breed club) recommend that the dogs obtain titles, I think it should be confirmation, and "something else" that would be picked off of a list. For me, this is more to prove that the breeder is dedicated to doing the best possible for the breed less than it is about the dog's actual ability.

This brings me to my next thought... While I like the idea of a breeding commission, I wonder if the club should just be more strict as to who it actually recognizes as breeders? Maybe there can be an application process stricter than just regular membership in the club for people to be on an "approved breeder" list or something? Then there could be something on there about confirmation and evaluating stock for correct structure for endurance and correct temperament. This way, titles could be encouraged, but the ultimate discretion would still be left up to the breeder to decide if an untitled dog would still work well in the program. Or maybe something about at least one of the dogs needing titles? Or a combination of at least one working/sport title and one confirmation title between the two of them?

Mind you, I have zero experience about how breed clubs typically work, so I have no idea how feasible any of this is, just throwing out ideas. :)

OK, so my question to the American Dobie, GSD, etc. folks is this: If they truly love the breed, why did they change it so it no longer behaves as it was designed to? Just because they liked it's looks and not it's character? In that case, are they really stewards of the breed with it's best interests at heart?
Removing aggression/sharpness from a breed designed to be a "man-stopper" just because of "bad press"? THAT'S THE BREED. If you can't handle the temperament, get another breed - don't turn it into dishwater!
If you go to Jimmy Moses' Kaleef GSD site, he guarantees excellent "show" dogs... GSDs were designed to be WORKING DOGS. Turning them into a pretty sidegait with no working ability is reprehensible! How dare they say they "love the breed"?

Often in wolfdog breeding you can meet owners which want to make a litter, one or two maybe, but not be a "real active breeder", sometimes you can meet by these "owners wich made litters with the help of the club" very interessing mates, with very interessing lines and so, also by "mere owners" you can meet very interessing females, that would help to improve the breed, so we cannot forget about them. ;)
If you make restriction for "who can be breeder" these kind of people can simply give up, because they will is only make one or two litters and nothing more, so, its not worth be a registered breeder with everything ok.
I think you should not have more "strict rules" than the basic like health tests for breed and the acceptance of the litter by the club breed comission, if someone wants to mate the female, the breed comission must be there for point if the female can be used and with wich the males after the oficial health results.

For these kennels wich want continue breeding, I mean, realy breed the breed, you can make something like different class looking who do more right things (like health tests of the pups they breed, titles and so), to point kennels who have most quality in their selection and so, encourage the other breeders to do the same.

Sometimes you can see owners wich started with the will to do only one litter, for see the "miracle of the life" that in the end turned in a good breeder that helped a lot the breed in the country.

So, the breed comission in the end, would exist for avoid that uninformed people do the wrong thing.

"If they truly love the breed, why did they change it so it no longer behaves as it was designed to?"

Obviously if you're of the camp where you think that dogs should do what they were meant to do evermore, then you wouldn't agree with them. And actually, shepherding has not much to do in the way of protection since there are still lots of shepherds that do, well, sheep herding, and then there are flock guardians. Two different groups, totally different types of dogs. German Shepherds were, for a short time, a shepherding dog.. at the beginning the Great War, they were transformed into an all around working dog, because it was believed that if they stuck solely to shepherding, which was even then a diminishing activity in those parts, they would go down the drain with that, too.

AmDobes are still one of the easiest to train dogs there are.. very intuitive, still a very easy student. That the sharpness has been toned down some, may to some people be detrimental, and indeed there are a lot of people who find some discontinuity in that. If you want to view their character today as 'dishwater', well, that is sad. People who breed AmDobes don't do it because they don't care about the character.. they just care about certain aspects of it more than others. You can choose to disagree with that but the dogs certainly are not trash with useless temperaments. Their dogs are simply for another audience. And you can also disagree that there shouldn't be another audience, that all working dogs should just be for the working audience.. again, difference of opinion. Their temperament didn't turn into the way it is today because they did not care for temperament.. it was purposely bred this way, so if you may view their dogs as an result of misled or careless breeding, then we can just agree to disagree.

Do I have a problem with working kennels? Nope, not at all. I have admiration for both parties.. actually, as it goes with greyhounds, kennels (working and show) find that breeding from a strict working line to a solely show line can often produce dogs that are both very able and of type. I think any kennel who concentrates almost exclusively on one or the other will undoubtedly obviously bias the breed in some way. By working together I think that the best of both spheres can be had. Unfortunately, it often becomes 'us' vs 'them' mentality, which I actually think is more harmful to a breed than just accepting that there are all different types of kennels that emphasize or excel at different aspects and trying to work together, rather than section off into separate little niches and then everyone breeding dogs to separate extremes - ie., very pretty dogs, very soft dogs, very sporty dogs, very hard dogs, the group that doesn't care much at all about conformation so long as the job gets done, etc.

By and by, regarding breeder listings.. I know the French Bulldog Club of America has, for instance, a rule that doesn't allow the listing of breeders if the breeder has not bred at least one CH. titled dog in the past. For a companion bred pet, not a bad measure at all IMHO. Course, the Frenchie also has a good solid population and can afford that type of discernment.. it'll be a long, long time before numbers of CSV are sufficient so as to allow for that kind of rule.

Being in dogs for 17 years, and training literally just about every breed from Chinese Cresteds to Tibetan Mastiffs, I do think Dobies are, overall, a smart breed. That's why I hate to see them watered down here in America - something I want to avoid happening in CsVs.
As for Mrcy's point about not being able to disregard untitled breed stock with our numbers so low, I also agree. So how about this: Breed Wardens.
A totally objective set of opinions from those dedicated to preserving the correct character of the breed? Perhaps we can take some of the American Temperament Test Society's exercises, some "courage tests" from the GSD world, ZTP from Rottie folks and make up our own test to judge CsV character? I am sure the original CsV breeding program MUST have had something similar, no? Perhaps Karel Hartl can help us design one? Perhaps have a "board" of three different judges or have three different tests under different judges and that would determine breeding suitability without having to title a dog?
I think something like that would be more than acceptable to all factions of CsV fanciers...
Thoughts?

Good idea. But how will those wardens/judges be qualified? Judges at actual shows have had years and years of experience looking at all different types of dogs and many have been breeders in one breed or the other, as well.

Also, bonitations as they exist for CSVs roughly touch upon temperamental aspects.. all dogs can have a bonitation done regardless of having a fault or not. Perhaps a modified program like the existing bonitation, with more of an emphasis and spectrum on temperament would be workable?

First I think the CsVCA (since this is about forming the club in the USA)should get the standard set - I know Marcy has the FCI (I think?) standard on the site:

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/standard.html

Maybe we should look over the standard (with a magnifying glass) and decide if it needs editing in any way.

Then, members with voting rights to the CsVCA can appoint someone (does the appointed person need to be a member of the CsVCA?) or volunteer to be an aspect warden (physical, temperament etc. as examples) and then all voting members vote on the people who were nominated. Each warden serves for a one year term and then the CsVCA would repeat the process (much like board members). Multiple members so that the decisions aren't made by one person.

Right now there are very few CsV people in the USA so I think we could have some international help with this (I don't think it would require someone to be in the USA to be a warden?).

We should also get a code of ethics set up and stand by it 100% (nothing on that page yet) so that all owners and breeders (current and potential) know what the club would expect from them.

Speaking of ethics..

I would really like to see a breed club in which certain health testing is mandatory. I've seen lots of breed clubs in which it is 'strongly recommended'.. to me, that's not quite enough. Also minimum age at first breeding.. again, lots of breed clubs have a vague 'strongly recommended' after 18 months of age.. but not a deal breaker (though to me, it really should be a deal breaker).

Regarding titling.. I think that it's fine to list on the breeder referral, only those who have at least titled their dogs in some way.. because the breeder referral is basically for the general public. I do agree that the population itself isn't large enough for all untitled dogs to be genetically excluded, but perhaps a database (like the one here) for dogs in the US can be had, separate from a breeders' directory. That way it is still possible for those dogs to contribute internally, through the club, but they would not be the go-to source for outside persons curious to buy a dog.

In previous experience looking into another rare (in the US) breed, you sometimes get the people who take the 'well there are only 4 specimens of the breed in the states, so we can't exclude any of them' route.. including dogs with diagnosed problems. That would be disasterous.

I fully agree with health certifications - especially with genetic issues.

DM - unless both (direct) parents are Normal / Normal - the dog should be tested. Grandparents cannot be used - even if all 4 are normal / normal.

OFA - Hip certification.

CERF (Eyes)

Other genetic disorders should be noted. But also, the genetics themselves should be looked at. For example, with DM, an N/A dog could be bred to a N/N and statistically half the puppies would only be carriers (just don't breed an N/A to an N/A or even an A/A!!). This way if you have an extremely good dog with something like this you could attempt to breed it out without risking making it worse.

I'm sure there are many others that I'm not thinking of.

Titles - I think there should be at least some basic titling. Maybe we could inforperate our own titling structure specific for the breed or maybe stick to what's out there - agility, obedience, tracking, for example?

While we can't be too picky now, we should still look at what's being bred, even pulling dogs form breeding programs that clearly shouldn't be bred (poor hips, poor temperament etc..).

I would think there should be a committee formed to approve Breed Wardens. People who have a lot of experience in dogs (not necessarily CsV required as that would severely limit available and competent resources), training, titling, behavior, etc. For instance, I would trust judgment of my dogs by Fred Lanting who I don't think has even met a CsV yet. He literally wrote the book on Canine Orthopedics and has judged ALL kinds of breeds around the world, bred and titled dogs himself, and, if properly educated on our breed, would, in my opinion, be an excellent and impartial (since he doesn't have one) Breed Warden.
AKC Judge James Frederickson is also a judge who I respect greatly. There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource.
I think once they are approved as a Breed Warden, I would think it should be a lifetime title, like a judge's position. Approving committees/boards would be elected and changing positions, of course, so that there is no political cliques going on.
I think we could take the Bonitation program and use that as at least our foundation...

Cecil (a.k.a. Skip) Miller.

I would be against the "lifetime" breed warden - once they're accepted what's their motivation to really keep the breed a priority?

Look at Hunte joining the GSDCA. While this is an extreme case, how could we tell someone who truly has the breed's best interest in mind as opposed to someone who is just a very good BS artist? At least with the election (or appointment) process they'd need to keep their priorities straight or else they'll get booted.

Lunas Mom, your idea is nice, but I see a huge problem there, know how to judge dogs and even be a good judge and vet does not mean know how to select the CzW breed, principaly if someone is already used with breeds that have such huge genetic pool like Pit Bulls, Labradors or Goldens, even if you educate this person, dificultly you will breake some already formed concepts, for exemple:
In Golden retriever, if you have a nice litter with good and interesting dogs, you repeat it and it will not be a problem, in CzW you take care in the chose of the owners, stay in touch with some of them and should not repeat the mate even if it was one of the nicest mating you've ever seen, the gene pool is really small, will be a waste anyway if you repeat a litter when you already have pups of this mate that can continue the line of this conection, no different thing happen when we talk about inbreedng and linebreedings, that are common in popular breeds and even used for "fix your ownblood line of breeding" but that should be done with a lot of care in CzW, normaly for accentuate characteristics/bloodline wichs disapearing by some dogs/lines, not thinking in "your own bloodline" only.
Sometimes you will find dogs that are not nice at all, because of the line, because of the threatment or even because of both, but these dogs could be used in a very interesting way for the breeding if the breed comission use the correct conections, even if this dog isnt exactly what the standard say, if he have an interesting line if worked properly can, futurely, improve the breed.
Of course would be nice you count with the HELP of these people, but the decision should be up to a breed comission formed by breeders and the most experienced people possible in your country, and here im not talking about "experience = years of breding" but "experience = Knowledge and etic to breed right".
I mean it because select a breed is not only know genetic and so, but know whats happening, be attent to everything new, separe gossips of the truth, stay informed and in touch with others breeders, unfortunately this kind f interst you will not find by other people than breeders, as its not only a one more study, but almost a "way of live". :lol:

Obviously, the selection/appointment/approval of a Breed Warden would have to be reviewed extensively by whatever Board or Committee is in charge of it. I think, at least here in the United States, we cannot expect potential Breed Wardens to have extensive experience in the breed as we don't have that many here in the first place. That doesn't mean they are not able to be a good Breed Warden.
Take, for instance, myself - Luna is my first CsV. I, however, have a Bachelor's Degree majoring in Animal Behavior and have been training, competing, titling and working dogs for over 17 years - dogs of every breed and I have training in almost EVERY dog sport from skijoring (a massive failure trying to use my Malinois - they tend to run in circles and I kept getting wrapped around trees) to waterwork, frisbee, agility, herding, schH... you name it, I have tried it. I have titled dogs in Obedience, Rally and SchH, as well as having great success in the conformation ring with trips to Eukanuba (invitation only) and Westminster and even got invited to Crufts!
I have an excellent eye for structure (I have been invited to evaluate many litters of multiple breeds to select conformation as well as working picks), I have bred only 2 litters, but have had excellent success with them, I was a Veterinary Technician (veterinary nurse) for years, I am a DVG-Certified Training Director, and used to run the obedience program at a local animal shelter for years - and I have numerous other achievements that won't fit in just one post. I am not bragging here, but I feel pretty confident that I would be able to objectively look at the temperament of a dog, as well as the physical structure, and determine what the correct CsV is per the Standard. Other dog folks have asked me to evaluate their dogs (breeds from Dalmatians to Goldens to GSD, Nefoundlands, Finnish Spitz, Collies and others) and so far, I have been on the money. Personally, even though I always review each breed's Standard before evaluating, there is also a certain "esthetic" one with a good "eye" can pick out immediately. A harmony. Not to mention how easy it is to "test" a dog and see what kind of character it possesses.
Of course, I have been studying dogs for years, go to several educational seminars for both structure and behavior throughout a given year, etc.
Just because I have limited exposure to the CsV as a breed, does not mean I wouldn't have the skills to determine what should be bred and what shouldn't. That is, after all, what a breeder does, and who better to ask to be a steward of the breed?

Hi Marcy, I am happy, in US will be club for wolfdogs. I wish to your club really well working breedcomission, which will care about health of wolfdogs.
If US breedcomission will make groups of males (blood groups folowed lines) I offer you my help.
And I think, you can ask czech club if you will need some help, if you will have questions.
You know, you can write me when you will want ;).
bye Hanka

I don't mind an international presence when it comes to wardens, especially now in the beginning since officially there is only one active breeder in the USA now (Marcy - unless someone else has some "buns in the oven"). We're relatively inexperienced with the breed as a nation (no offense to anyone but - we are :) ) I'm sure consultations from experienced breeders abroad would be extremely helpful until we can get things going well.

I like the idea of more experienced people.. even moreso if they are from the international community. But, I don't know how accurate a bonitation or bonitation-like activity would go without actually seeing the dogs in person though. I know of lots of unphotogenic dogs, and also photogenic dogs.. movement and gait would be left out of the picture too.

I don't know how well to judge temperament without actually being there, either.

The bonitations would obviously have to be live and in person. As many of my SchH clubs have done, we would have to bring an international judge over for an event. The Natioal Breed Club and Entry Fees would have to cover costs, though a lot of the Euro judges we have brought in are more than happy to stay as a guest in a member's home, rather than at a hotel, as is usual custom for the AKC judges to stay. Of course, there are those that insist that such social ties bias judging, but usually those are the ones who lose...

Not words are important but what you do. I also beginner as owner but i read forum for years. Maybe you have experiences in other breed but you select wolfdogs like beginner. You write "work" "working" and what... you buy antiworking dog. you know to select good puppy you have to check puppies, parents, see character, speak with owners. for have good dog for work is to read and choose, And not to buy first offered puppy.

Just because you have been on a forum for years does not make you an expert or more experienced than I am. Yes, I am a beginner when it comes to actually LIVING with a vlcak - since there are only a handful here in the country, there is little chance I would have to spend time with one casually.
And I did not buy the first pup that came along... not that I have to defend myself against the accusatory tone of your posts, but I have been in contact with several kennels throughout Europe as well as one here in the U.S. for the last year or so, quietly researching what I like/did not like, etc.
Just because I am not blabbing all over the forum doesn't mean I am not doing my homework. You seem to be a lot of talk and I see no action.
I am more than happy with my choice when it comes to working ability. Perhaps your idea of working is quite different than mine. For me, I want a dog who is "game" to try anything, stable and responsive in public, likes bitework, is intelligent and flashy in obedience, committed to the Track, has excellent, sound conformtaion and has decent prey drive. I don't need a vlcak that is such a drivey dog that I can't live with it. I need a dog who I can snuggle with, too, and can live in harmony with my other pets (though the cats are not thrilled with her)...
Luna, so far, has fulfilled these requirements, and we hope to have a successful adventure with her. And even if she isn't the "ultimate" working dog, I am quite satisfied with her.
Put your money where your mouth is - how many dogs have you titled?

I have heard through the grapevine that when the AKC chooses to recognize a breed (move it from FSS to Misc.) the official American breed club it selects is not allowed to make rules regarding which dogs be registered - the AKC will always register any dog with correct papers. This also means that the parent club cannot stipulate what health tests must be done either. This is why every single breed club has a Code of Ethics that merely 'suggest' which tests be done, but can NEVER use the lack of said testing as a condition of registration.

The AKC has been known to pass over parent clubs with strict mandatory rules (see Leonberger, Cav King Charles Spaniel) and pick some fraction club that doesn't, as the Nationally recognized club. Once the AKC recognizes a national club, it stops accepting pedigrees/registrations from other clubs. So it leaves all the other clubs with more stringent rules between the choice to forever remain unrecognized and unable to have pedigrees, or to join up with a club with lax rules.

I had thought for a long time that such rules regarding health testing were the responsibility of the breed club, and that the AKC was merely just the record holder/guarantor. So many times you hear the argument "it's not the AKC, it's the national breed club's responsibility to enforce Code of Ethics"...

It's increasingly clear that this is not so, that the AKC personally picks and chooses breed clubs that suit its agenda, and the AKC's agenda is clearly only for growing numbers and to build popularity, even at the cost of health.

For these reasons and more I am now against AKC recognition of this
breed and will not personally be registering all and any future CsVs I will be importing with the FSS.

OK, will you keep them registered in Europe under the FCI ???

Best regards / Mikael

Mikael - I PM'd you. :)

Though there are a lot of things I DON'T like about AKC, it still is the "more recognized" registrar here in the U.S.
As AKC is just a registry, it CANNOT impose such rulings as health requirements - though why you would blame the AKC for that is beyond me... If you want to "blame" anyone - it is the parent club that has control over the breed, not the AKC - they only approve/disapprove changes to by-laws and standards. As far as health test requirements, personally I think such things should be done by a responsible breeder - and if the person is not a responsible breeder, only idiots would buy from them anyway...
Our breed club needs to incorporate and have approved by-laws and then AKC will incorporate said "parent club" - so it really boils down to whoever gets their butt in gear to develop a functioning breed club first....
Personally, I feel that affiliating with the AKC has some advantages for a burgeoning breed - I dual-register my dogs with AKC and UKC (who I prefer as a regisry, actually) and it opens up more venues in which to compete, as well.

Please reread the post. I said "This also means that the parent club cannot stipulate what health tests must be done either. This is why every single breed club has a Code of Ethics that merely 'suggest' which tests be done, but can NEVER use the lack of said testing as a condition of registration. "


I am well aware that the AKC doesn't impose health requirements. They simply choose the breed club that won't require it. In fact it is the AKC's method to pick the breed club that will not reinforce stringent standards on health testing as a requirement of registration. Again, reference the newly recognized Leonberger. It is not simply who 'gets their butts in gear' first. For reference, the CKCS parent club, the original club, was simply passed over because they would not compromise on their testing requirements.

As I previously stated, the AKC likes to pick splinter clubs that like to cater to the easiest way to promote a breed. Just because a club was first doesn't prevent that. I don't know how it was not sufficiently apparent that the post is directed at the AKC's selection of parent clubs. I have never said once that the AKC is responsible for enforcing health testing.

I don't know that your assumption on why one breed club was picked over the other is correct - as I mentioned before, the club's by-laws have to be acceptable to the AKC and as far as I know, "requiring" health tests is not something allowable in the parent club by-laws... one reason there is a lot of friction between Germany's SV and the AKC...
Kennel Club politics is really no different than international politics - everyone has different rules and regulations, and a lot of crazy loop-holes, too. Not to mention folks who take advantage of those loop-holes!
But who you decide to register with is a personal choice - and thankfully here in the United States we have that freedom.
Personally, there are so many thing I like to do under AKC auspices (Rally, Obedience, Agility, Herding, Tracking), it would severly limit my ability to compete with my dogs. If I were to acquire another vlcak here in the US, I would not want to purchase a pup that I could not AKC register - it will be nice to be the first vlcak with an AKC title - and literally make breed history. Not to mention the far-off day Vlcaks show in such prestigious events like Eukanuba or Westminster. Having show multiple times in both, thre IS something pretty cool about showing on the carpet with the whole world watching...

This is what I mean, though. Requiring it is not allowed. So in essence the AKC refuses to recognize clubs that have by-laws that require it.

While most the rest of the world's KCs have requirements on minimal health standards in order to be registered, the AKC lacks that. As I said, for a long time I believed that all fell on the shoulders of the breed club, that they simply did not have strong enough bylaws. But it seems this is only partially right.. they are not allowed to have these types of bylaws as a requirement of being the parent club.

Competitive titles aren't the only things there are to do with a dog anyway.. There are actual working venues.. those without titles and without the world watching.. that are really worthy too.

Me? I would rather the breed be bred under stringent standards and be elusively rare, than to have lax rules but popular and on the red carpet, so to speak. Just a difference in opinion, I guess!

I think one of the major reasons that AKC cannot have parent clubs that have such health requirements is that they are a registry and if it is a purebred dog - regardless of whatever faults it may have - it can be registered.
The only reason to deny registration is if the parentage is impure/in question (this coming for a friend who also happens to be a Delegate). Things like disqualifying faults are for the responsible breeder to remove from their breeding program (or exploit - as in the case of the white Dobermann)... not to mention that thre are some things that would be throwing the baby out with the bath water...
For instance, I know a GSD that was an AMAZING SchH dog - 100 points in all 3 phases - perfect as a playful kitten off the field - heck, he even represented the US on the World Team a few years ago... he was Affected for DM and unfortunately became symptomatic at a relatively young age... should he have been removed from the breeding program when he had so many GREAT things to contribute? If that was a "health requirement" he would have been, despite the fact that the disease is relatively easy to eradicate and there is a MUCH greater need for his super temperament and correct drives to bring proper balance to some of the working lines...
It is personal responsability and morals - things you can't legislate - that need to be brought to the forefront, and if the breeder doesn't do the testing you feel is appropriate, don't buy from them. On the flipside, you will see folks who don't do a single health test on their dog but as he is THE NEWF who won Westminster, he gets bred to anything that will hold still. Would I take that chance? I don't know, but I like that I have the choice...

See, the thing is that, there may be "dog people", dog-savvy people, with the ability to discern a good breeder from not, but as you know this is painfully not the case with the general public. From purely personal experience with 0 statistic to back this up, more than 90% of all the dogs I have known from day to day life outside of shows and other dog-centric activities are dogs from mills or back yard breeders with zero knowledge of pedigree and health testing.

You can say, only idiots buy like that, but that doesn't stop the fact that most people will continue to buy like that not because they are idiots but simply because they don't know and dogs, as much as they love them, are simply just a family pet, just a dog, and will never be more interested on how to find a breeder that is actually trying to better the breed.

It is true that legislation cannot stop all incidences of the huge amount of millers and BYBs here, but it can certainly curtail what can or cannot be sold as an "AKC pedigree x breed", which the general public views as a stamp of quality, kinda like when you buy a Nike sneaker, you know it's Nike quality. People are simple like that. There are things I don't know much about, that I would buy based simply on the 'brand'.. stuff like lawnmowers and cars. If the AKC is "the dog's champion", I would really hope one day they will care about their brand.

I don't have to buy from someone who doesn't test, but that doesn't stop the production of dogs that are bred like that. They will never be my dogs but that doesn't make it less sad... :(

I would think it is a good idea to take a look at countries that have rules for breeding and registration, and take what we can from them, see what works, what doesn't work... more than just depending on people to learn themselves and make the right choice.

I agree - which is why I have a GSD from Belgium (German Highlines) - because the GSD here are crap, for the most part.
Personally I think it is all EDUCATION - educating the general public... just like AKC did back in the day to make their name synonomous with "quality" - the breed clubs need to educate the public on what to look for in a good breeder - and in a good dog.
Personally I think what we need to do first is get rid of "commercial breeders" (puppy mills) as the biggest detriment to caninedom in our country, but that is another story...
I do think legislating morals/ethics is a slippery slope - and I do agree that most of the dog-buying public are idiots... but I don't know any other way of remedying that aside from banning stupid people from breeding. AKC can't be responsible for idiots - their PARENTS should have raised them to do their homework, no?

On a side note, I have now had to produce my AKC papers twice for animal control when a crazy neighbor and then a group of angry hunters (my dogs were carrying on while they were in the forest behind my house) reported me for breeding wolf hybrids - and then coyotes. FCI papers, not enough. At least out here in the country, most people - even dog wardens - have no clue what goes on in the rest of the world, and are always wary of someone trying to pull a fast one on them. The AKC logo at least looks recognizeable, and can be matched to microchips. That's usually enough.

If you follow these same standards, you won't register UKC either - they require even less to breed, no DNA requirements. That will pretty much eliminate the possibility of doing any kind of working, companion or performance event in the USA, unless you go through some other organization (such as DVG or USA, in schutzhund), but those organizations also don't necessarily require health testing. It is possible to register FCI through Puerto Rico, but that still doesn't eliminate, or even really touch upon poor breeding here. I'm sure owners from many other FCI breeds can testify to that. I don't know what kind of problems (maybe none) that might arise when you list the stud dog with a US address if you were to breed to a bitch here, and the owner of the bitch wanted to register the litter AKC. I also don't know how the reciprocity agreement will work with FCI when we go full AKC for dogs who are PR/FCI registered. Of course, it's always a personal decision how anyone proceeds.

I do agree that we (USA, all breeds) need to have higher breeding standards...with regards to health as well as breeding standards - such as bonitations, and mental health ratings as they do in the nordic countries. I think this would help solve other problems too - our shelters would be far less crowded due to the costs of producing a screened litter driving the number of cheap/bad/in-it-only-for-the-money breeders down, and it would force people to become aware of health tests. I think AKC's Breeder of Merit program is a step in the right direction; I wish they would make it mandatory. Essentially it comes back to the classic US political debate of government regulation vs. deregulation. Left vs. right.

We are in a unique position right now. We have only had 2 litters in the US; they aren't being mass produced...yet. I have an idea of where the next 4-5 litters will come from. We also have an incredibly small and tight international breed "circle"...it's generally not too hard to find when puppies are imported here, and because there isn't much information on the breed here, most people importing have a tendency to reach out to owners here, if they can find contact info for them. By maintaining a cohesive group of owners, we will hopefully help to drive collective knowledge about our breed, until such time (150-200 registered dogs) that we can push to be the official parent club, and we do have official breed recognition. I think it would be detrimental to push for seperate groups/clubs - i.e AKC club v. non-AKC club - at this point. AKC is the big fish, it will eventually get it's way if it thinks there is money to be made. The ignorant masses, when buying, will look for what AKC says is "good", which comes about through showing and exhibiting AKC...I'd like to help define this rather than turning away and leaving it solely in the hands of future importers/breeders who might not take the time to educate themselves in the way I try to do for myself, and think their very untypical dogs are beautiful, and worthy of breeding.... "Those people" are out there. I hear from them all the time. :? I'd personally rather not fight it, or one another, but work constructively within our own ranks as a breed. This doesn't necessarily mean liking one another or agreeing with one another all the time. That's any organization. But I do think we should, hope we will, stick together, now, and in the future, as breeders and owners. Once established, clubs have the ability to require health testing as part of their coveted futurities and maturities, hopefully the USA/AKC will evolve and do the right thing eventually.

Yup, it's true that the UKC doesn't require health testing either, but they are less restrictive about what pedigrees it will accept from multiple clubs, even ones that do have strict rules (and ones that might not). In that way they pretty much act simply like a registry like I had thought of the AKC as, one that doesn't actively work to promote specific club agendas. That is what to me is the most distasteful about the AKC, not simply that they don't require certain things.

Like you said, Marcy, there is a tendency here to make good steps merely optional. Like CHIC or Breeder of Merit. I wish those would be mandatory too.

I do not know the answer and wish that things could be better for dogs in general here.. And for anyone pushing for recognition I wish them the best of luck. There are obviously some high ideals and convictions that drive your decision on the matter. I didn't arrive at my decision lightly or without lots of thought, though, so surely one can understand my, and many others', decision on the matter.

In regards to competitive venues.. I will have to ask mutt-owning friends what they use. :)

There used to be "AMBOR" (American Mixed Breed Obedience Registry) but most of the mixed-breed competition venues are few and far-between, not to mention they usually require proof of sterilization. I think thre are only a couple of Agility and Flyball (again, few and far-between) that don'[t care about breed, mix or intact/sterilized... sheesh - the Flyball folks are the ones making all sorts of "height-dog" mixes with jacks, BCs... etc... that end up euthanized in shelters as there are only a limited number of folks who actually do flyball... again, another story...
But I am afraid of the same thing happening here with my Vlcaks, too, Marcy. Luna looks shepherd-y enough that I could probably get away with assuring someone she is a DOG, but Pollux looks exactly like a wolf, and I have no doubt that he would be mistaken for one...
But I do think it's breed clubs and responsible breeders who need to educate the public, and it's up to the consumer to do a little homework too. We can't bottlefeed folks...